Author Topic: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.  (Read 5772 times)

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« on: March 01, 2016, 08:29:42 PM »
Hello All.

Ok, it's St David's day, so being welsh I'll open this thread.

Don't be shy..... Let's have a look at those castings.  ;)

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2016, 08:38:32 PM »
Give us a chance I've just done a marathon post on the Jowit Cylinder ;)



I mentioned this thread a while ago and it has reared it head again. Its not meant to put people off using castings but may be useful for others to understand what may have caused a fault and how best to deal with it. I will not name the castings or maker to protect the guilty ;)

To start the ball rolling I'll use the same example that was in Jo's Triple thread.

Fault No 1 Voids

This bronze / gun metal casting looked qiute innocent from the outside, so into teh lathe it went to have the main flat surface machines and a couple of small holes started to appear, nothing critical.



I then had to mill a slot on the opposite side which revealed more holes than a bit of swiss cheese.



I don't think these were sand inclusions as they were within the casting and ther was no sand in teh holes (we will come to that case later)

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2016, 08:49:49 PM »
Fault No 2 Porus castings (small voids)

An reasonable looking aluminium piston casting, even had a generous chucking spigot on the end.



Did not seem too bad as I started to machine the other end.



But as the OD started to get close to finished size low and behold a small hole or 3 hundread :(



Thats enough for tonight I'll see what other rouges I can find tomorrow :)

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2016, 08:56:20 PM »
Sorry Jason, I was about to knock off too !!  :)

You're quite right that's not sand inclusion but looking at the very rough/ragged cavities I would say that insufficient " Head " on the sprue caused internal shrinkage, or a " cold shut/lock " during the pour.
This causes the casting, as it's cooling to feed itself rather than be fed from the runner. A simple remedy is to place a " Nob " ( cone shaped ) feeder near to the casting. This, because it's in the sand mould has a nice hot reservoir of metal to feed after the pour.

This is different to gas pockets, they are usually spherical and smooth to look at.

Kind regards, Graham.

I see our posts crossed, that's my explanation for your Gunmetal castings.

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2016, 11:55:08 AM »
Good morning Jason and all.

Your piston casting is one of the worst I've ever seen, there has been no degassing of the molten metal before pouring.

Molten Aluminium loves Hydrogen it will absorb it from anywhere, it's mostly environmental, humidity damp tools etc. Leaving the pot to stew will take on lots.

Without degassing the Hydrogen starts to bubble out as the metal solidifies, your photo speaks volumes!!

A simple tablet containing Chlorine or Fluorine salts, " rabbled " through the melt will remove most and is best performed outdoors, the smell is both nasty and toxic. An " old hand " suggested mothballs but we used a proprietary brand of covering flux and degasser from a well known UK supplier.

A " backyard " foundry CAN produce a viable product if they use the right materials for the job.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2016, 11:59:03 AM »
Thank you for the excellent explanation, Graham! What about bronze/brass? Is there a similar cause/effect?

Pete
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2016, 12:19:30 PM »
Graham

Please correct me if I am Wrong but have I seen common salt wrapped in foil to degass with

In my dim distance past did they not use willow wands to stir the melt , not sure if that was brass though.

Salasilc acid ,aspirin come to mind

They used to vertically cast 36 inch CI pipes in pipe pits at the firm I used to work the core plug was well interesting, red sand, straw and horse dung  :insane:

Thanks for the information and yes I have seen lots of castings like Jason's and much worse

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2016, 12:31:30 PM »
Hello Pete.

Many thanks.

With Cuprous alloys the higher temperatures usually drive off any gasses but you still need to use a " covering " flux to reduce oxidisation and loss. Brass in particular, the Zinc burns brightly and will vanish without it. The amateur can use Borax but, as usual there's always a proprietary flux/refiner/degasser  available.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline Jo

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2016, 12:51:23 PM »
As some of you know I consider castings to be a thing of desire: they are a promise of hours of enjoyment in my workshop that (hopefully) will result in a lovely model engine  :whoohoo:

However on my Triple thread I muttered about some flaws in the outside of my castings >:(. Graham identified it as being a result of loose sand falling back into the mould before pouring metal  :ShakeHead:

Jo
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Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2016, 01:01:43 PM »
Thanks for the insight Graham, although at this stage there is not much we can do about some of these faults its good to know what causes them and how a good foundry will deal with them. Did you see my message?

Chilled or hard castings

These little surprises usually hid just under the surface of iron castings and tend to hide in corners or extremities. You usually don't know they are there until your HSS cutter suddenly goes blunt so always worth rubbing an old file over these hoding places or going straight in with carbide tooling.

Once you gave found the chilled matal it will show up as a shiny surface compared to the usual matt iron such as these.





With luck the casting will have enough machining allowance for the hard material to be removed but sometimes particularly if a hole needs to be drilled or tapped near the chill then you can get into problems as the HSS drill bit or tap won't cut it, this fuel tank filler is a good example, machined flat OK with carbide but the dark areas are still all hard.



Heat and a slow cool will often do the trick.



The annealed metal can then be worked.


fcheslop

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2016, 01:02:43 PM »
Apart from the dubious machining
These Rider Ericsson  castings Im fighting with have a few problems

Iv never been a lover of castings wonder why :Lol:

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2016, 01:28:53 PM »
Hello Stuart.

Yes common salt can be used Sodium Chloride, the Chlorine.

Willow was used to " Rabble " Brass in the early days. There were many recipes going round when the Midlands got into mass producing clock parts. Akin to alchemy!!

Ah, the foundry horse...... A vital part according to Roger the patternmaker. The manure made the best cores in his opinion. Then the urine also used diluted for non ferrous castings. He didn't miss the smell though!

This thread is bringing back some very fond memories, thank you all.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2016, 01:41:25 PM »
Apart from the dubious machining
These Rider Ericsson  castings Im fighting with have a few problems
Iv never been a lover of castings wonder why :Lol:

Hello fcheslop.

Your photo shows two problems IMO, both covered. Little to no degassing and a poor running feed to the casting causing tears.

Had that been one of my kits you would have been given a replacement FOC.

Kind regards, Graham.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 01:54:14 PM by Alyn Foundry »

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2016, 02:05:03 PM »
Hello Jason.

Yes I got your message the answer is " fractional " . The number 6 that weighs half a Ton only developed 1/2 HP!

Chilled Iron castings are a nightmare your remedy is the only one IMO.

That Monitor casting looks really nice BTW. The pattern plays a key role in any casting. Roger told me you need to make them 110% otherwise the casting will never look nice.

I will write about finish and sand later.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline Stuart

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2016, 02:26:44 PM »
Graham

If you some more from the past  :
Note this is from when I was 16 now 69

My uncle was a brass mouldier that's where the willow wand info came from they used Coke fired hole in the ground crucible boy you had to be tough to pull them out

Another uncle used to do CI moulds built up with bricks covered in the afor mentioned material and struck off with a strickel /sp these were for large slag ladles and siphons used in the old town gas pipe work

So not done it but seen a lot done

Have you come across the old timers not wanting the sunlight to shine in the foundry because they judged the temp by colour , they would not tolerate the pyrometers

Now a bit for the steam buffs , the pipe pit crane was a king post crane hydraulic powered , fluid used cannel water the pumps were triple units ( not expansion jobs but three proper HP cylinder ones) with very large acumilators spread around the works

Boy that's made me feel old

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline ImIndoors

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2016, 02:55:27 PM »
My experience of castings is not extensive and I am not a fan so thanks to contributors to this thread for valuable insight.
Regarding hard spots: I once bought a chunk of round cast iron bar to make a small flywheel and found a hard spot about the size of a grape deep within it.  I was using a carbide tipped tool and I could hear and feel the hard bit before it became apparent to sight by it's shiny appearance.  The solution was to put the workpiece in the bottom of my coal fire in the evening (after taking it out of the lathe  ;D) and leave it there till the fire went cold the following day.  The hard spot was still there but much reduced and easily worked.
Jim
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Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2016, 06:14:19 PM »
Graham

If you some more from the past  :
Note this is from when I was 16 now 69

My uncle was a brass mouldier that's where the willow wand info came from they used Coke fired hole in the ground crucible boy you had to be tough to pull them out

Another uncle used to do CI moulds built up with bricks covered in the afor mentioned material and struck off with a strickel /sp these were for large slag ladles and siphons used in the old town gas pipe work

So not done it but seen a lot done

Have you come across the old timers not wanting the sunlight to shine in the foundry because they judged the temp by colour , they would not tolerate the pyrometers

Now a bit for the steam buffs , the pipe pit crane was a king post crane hydraulic powered , fluid used cannel water the pumps were triple units ( not expansion jobs but three proper HP cylinder ones) with very large acumilators spread around the works

Boy that's made me feel old

Stuart

Hello Stuart.

Well I'm only 10 years behind you!!

Ah, the dark foundry floor.... Yes indeed a trained eye could see the temperature, another reason, the " pisser " a lovely foundry term for a leaking flask.  :)   Much easier to spot in low light.

The foundry at Rhuddlan had been around for nearly 150 years, formerly Corbett Williams agricultural equipment and engines. They had a pit in one corner but in all the time I dealt with them I never saw it used.

Both Rhuddlan and Buckley foundry used the " Green sand moulding " method but Buckley also had a huge " Shell " moulding system as well. Rhuddlan used a 3 Ton per hour Cupola whilst Buckley had modern induction furnaces. The sand was the common denominator, a lovely dark red with very fine grain texture, the " Virgin " sand was a mix of sand Bentonite and Coal dust and of course water to bind.
This was used to just cover the pattern and then " backed out " with used, tempered sand. "Tempered " is the term used for the water application of around 4/5% moisture.

A good finish to a casting is down to many factors but the choice of sand is the most important. I'm still using the same sand I bought nearly 30 years ago. My sand was just Mansfield Red with a touch of Bentonite, no Coal dust as it stains Aluminium.

Attached is an example of a casting I did a couple of years ago, virtually zero fettling!!   ;)

Kind regards, Graham.

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2016, 08:50:56 PM »
Mound Misalignment

This is where one half of a casting does not line up too well with the other.

This aircooled cylinder is a good example

As you can see along teh part line the two sides of teh fins do not line up, the fact one half of the bottom has cleaned up and the tool is still not touching the other side also shows how much they are out of line.



A good seeing to with an angle grinder removed some of the high spots



The low spots were filled with JBWeld and once rubbed down and painted who would know




This bronze casting is another example, trying to get the best layout of 4 holes had the large one slightly off which did not help to start with



Looking from the side you can see that the boss does not line up either side of teh part line



Which means that when the hole breaks out teh other side it is rather off :(



The cure for this one was to turn away most of the boss on teh back leaving a thin "sleeve" then silver solder on a "tube" once its had a bit of draft angle turned onto it and all been blended in only the different colour of the metal gives it away




Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2016, 03:31:07 PM »
Hello Jason.

I don't have a lot to say about mould misalignment. IMO there's only one guilty party, the supplier !! I rejected any castings that weren't up to scratch, the foundry soon learned the hard way that faulty castings don't sell.

Strong words, yes, but true.

I have attached a photo of the " Full " plate pattern of our ill fated Hornsby Akroyd engine. You will note the four " Slip blanks " which aid correct registration of the two flask halves. You might also notice, at either end of the pattern the tapped holes for the addition of guide runners. These guides align the plate to the flask box pins.

Our " loose, odd side " patterns were always fitted with patternmakers pegs so any misalignment in a casting was down to the moulder and not the pattern.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline Mathew28

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2016, 05:14:04 PM »
Hello Jason.

I don't have a lot to say about mould misalignment. IMO there's only one guilty party, the supplier !! I rejected any castings that weren't up to scratch, the foundry soon learned the hard way that faulty castings don't sell.

Strong words, yes, but true.

I have attached a photo of the " Full " plate pattern of our ill fated Hornsby Akroyd engine. You will note the four " Slip blanks " which aid correct registration of the two flask halves. You might also notice, at either end of the pattern the tapped holes for the addition of guide runners. These guides align the plate to the flask box pins.

Our " loose, odd side " patterns were always fitted with patternmakers pegs so any misalignment in a casting was down to the moulder and not the pattern.

Kind regards, Graham.

It's a shame there's not a like button on here Graham.
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Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2016, 07:55:54 PM »
Mis-matched parts

I suppose this one is down to the pattern maker and is where one casting does not match the one that it is meant to join onto.

Take these bearing caps which are far larger than the bottom half of teh bearing cap they are meant to mate with particularly on the left hand side.



This is where the "cast" surface has to be machined of seriously fettled with die grinder, Dremel and or files to make things look like they should.



Here is another example on the full size these two parts would have been one casting but to make it easier for us to machine and the supplier to cast the model comes as two parts, unfortunately teh diameter of teh cylinder is about 3/16" smaller than the diameter of the surface it is meant to join with. A bit of freehand milling got rid of most of te offending metal before grinding and filing.



J

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2016, 07:59:32 PM »
Over Fettled parts

The eagle eyed will have also spotted in the last photo where the foundry man got a bit carried away removing the feed sprue and ground down below the surface of the part



The only way round this with iron is to get out the body filler



And give it a good rub down



J

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2016, 08:01:25 PM »
Very educational thread.
Learning about the issues one can run into with castings and, more importantly, how to get around them.

Thanks!  :ThumbsUp:
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you', whistles, and certain dinner bells.
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Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2016, 08:05:29 PM »
Good to see you are finding it useful and seeing how to get round these issues and that its not putting you off using castings in the future.

I know of someone who has just let the moths loose on a casting set with a couple of faults, maybe they would like to show them  :stickpoke:

Offline Jo

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2016, 08:22:35 PM »
 ::) I think someone is just looking for evidence that I have actually got them.

The first is the inside of the skirt on a piston casting, which has cracked  :headscratch:

The next looks to be a flow problem but as it is magnesium I am not sure why.

The last is a reject crankcase, which was rejected due to the metal not flowing to the front of he case but I am planning on making the mounting a little shorter.

Jo

P.S. Those very desirable castings are hidden in a safe place  ;D
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Offline airmodel

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2016, 04:09:03 AM »
In the early days (30years ago) my castings had all those faults and more.

 Nowadays it is a trouble free process having learnt from my mistakes in the past.

Having said that I would be very angry having paid for those castings only to find all those faults when machining them.

Offline smfr

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2016, 06:36:14 AM »
How about this for a bad casting  :o



That's a vintage Stuart Twin Launch cylinder block from the 1970s, back when they were supposed to be good!

Those voids go almost to the bottom of the casting. I've got email out to Stuart to see if they'll replace it  :ROFL:

Simon

Offline Stuart

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2016, 07:47:01 AM »
Simon

I await your post on the result of the email to my name sake's

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2016, 11:57:55 AM »
Good morning All.

I fear this thread might put off model engineers from ever buying castings again !! Let's hope not.

Jason's first picture of a casting being oversized, unforgivable, that should have been addressed at prototype stage.

When I started on the Hornsby Akroyd who's bed and cylinder, like Jason's example were cast as one, I had the same dilemma. How to join the two parts together? My solution was to add a little extra onto  the water jacket pattern and machine a socket into the bed casting. The fillet was made part of the water jacket pattern and once machined blended near perfectly. A little extra thought made a big difference.

Jo.

Your pictures.

 A failed " drop test " ?   :)

The second one is more difficult with just the single view. But, could have been caused by " core crush " If the core was slightly oversized to the " print " as the boxes are closed the much harder core moves the sand, breaking it and the metal follows the new contours.

You final shot, many reasons, metal to cold, a short pour and even poorly vented mould will cause the problem.

Simon' picture.

Looks like classic " core blow " to me.

I'm pleased to read that our member " airmodel " has, due to years of practice honed his skills in this area of expertise, it dose take time!! I too can still remember all the " wasters " !!

Kind regards, Graham.

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2016, 12:38:29 PM »
Sand Inclusions

This is the cylinder of a model I must have started about 25-30yrs ago when I was a beginner and one of the reasons I did not finish it. Most of the gun metal castings had small pockets of sand within them which would take the edge off HSS tools as soon as one of the pockets was uncovered. This made boring very difficult as you would be half way down the cylinder and suddenly the note of the tool changes as it stops cutting and starts rubbing so retract tool, dig out the sand and try another cut with a resharpened tool OK until more sand is uncovered.






At the time it was beyond me to fully correct this, now I would probably have taken it out a bit larger with carbide tooling and fitted a sleeve or just scratch build a new cylinder.

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2016, 02:34:32 PM »
Hello Jason.

Your last two photos aren't sand inclusion IMO. They appear to be " Slag inclusion " this is caused by a turbulent metal entry into the mould oxidising the lower melting point material that's alloyed with the Copper.

Kind regards, Graham.

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2016, 03:36:40 PM »
So the white gritty stuff in the holes was slag and not sand?

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2016, 03:55:19 PM »
So the white gritty stuff in the holes was slag and not sand?

Hello Jason.

Possibly, a lot would depend on the Alloy which is of course is unknown.

Kind regards, Graham.

Offline KWIL80

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2016, 08:16:13 PM »
When I have iron castings made for me I always specify "leave the castings in the sand untill all is cool".
No kicking them out of the  sand mould while still red!! Certainly avoids the chilling.

Minimum fettling as well, this avoids having wanted metal ground off.

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2017, 01:52:03 PM »
I picked up another casting the other week which deserves a place here, being teh last of the three to pick up the castings I got the scabby one :-[

This is a pic of the cast surface - almost flaky, infact a dig with a screwdriver and pieces could be prized off in flakes. Looks like this was probably the upper surface of the casting which was also cored



And this is what was under his skin after the first cut, this continued for 5mm depth with bits flaking off to leave craters upto 3mm deep.



Anyone got any ideas on the cause?

Offline Alyn Foundry

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2017, 01:59:24 PM »
Hi Jason.

That's an easy one!! :)

The core used didn't have sufficient venting causing the casting to " blow "....

There are many ways to prevent this, the simplest is to drill the core after curing.

Kind regards, Graham.

Online Jasonb

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2017, 02:03:25 PM »
Thanks Graham, it was quiet a long core at 14" x 1 1/4"

To give the Foundry their due they did offer to cast another if it could not be used.


Offline mnay

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Re: Jason's " Rogue " casting thread.
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2017, 08:03:56 PM »
Just read through the entire thread.  Very good information.