Retirement Lathe

[Steamer5]

Hi Mosey,
 Had a friend who moved into a retirement complex. There was plenty for the ladies to do, not much for the guys! Anyway Steve pestered the management of the place for somewhere to setup his workshop.....they were a little reluctant at first. He found some other guys who were all so interested but woodwork orientated. Finally the management gave them somewhere to play, then found they had an onsite maintanence department, who were happy to take on most tasks within there abilities!
 Oh by the way a guy in New Zealand roped in a lot of others at his retirement village & built a full size aircraft! Sorry don't have a link yet....maybe soon if anybody is interested, it was never intended to fly so he only covered part of it to show of the frame.

Cheers Kerrin

[jerry kieffer]

I am considering moving to a retirement apartment and consolidating my shop. The SouthBend and the Derbyshire lathes would go.
The F2 would go leaving the F1 for tiny milling operations.
The 10" SouthBend is too large, though it is in perfect condition and fully kitted with accessories. The dearly loved high precision Derbyshire doesn't do everything I want. Do I make a power traversing feed for it? They exist but are not to be found.

So, what is there in lathes?
Benchtop in size, probably 4" swing, power traverse, quickchange gear box. High precision.
I think Sherline is out because of it's aluminum wiggly construction.
What about Cowells? Are they sold in the US? Will they do the job?
Mosey   :node:

Mosey

 While I have large machines, almost all of my machine work has been done on a 4" lathe and similar size milling equipment since the mid 70`s with the current major project at about 10,000 hours.  In addition, I teach several classes each year on Micro machining to both Hobbyist and industry where at least one or two students in each class are attempting to transition to small machines. As such, I deal with this question on a regular basis.     
Your Idea of moving to a 4" size equipment in an apartment is excellent and has worked well for many others.      However, machining on this size equipment requires a completely different mind set and different procedures if you are to be successful.        Just fooling around is one thing, success is another that must be experienced to be understood.     While you may work with work pieces that are at the top end of the envelope, most work will fall into the category of Micro Machining.     In that regard, you perceptions and desires expressed in the above post will lead to failure before you get started.
   I suspect that you have not attended a machine tool show recently.     The most expensive and accurate equipment beyond the comprehension of some are constructed from a carefully selected mix of steels, aluminum and special plastics.  This is done in part to reduce weight allowing rapid movement of milling heads but in equal part to achieve the highest levels of accuracy.       This in part also applies to small machines such as a 4" lathe if quality machining on a consistent basis is desired.       To be practical and efficient, a small machine must be able to rapidly remove large amounts of metal for their size, as well as have the sensitivity to feel and control micro tooling without breakage.
I have demonstrated my personal method of testing a small lathe for these capabilities and efficiency at shows and the classroom for many years as follows.   
 
 I first mount a piece of 3/4" piece of steel in the Chuck. Then machine the end down to a .010" pivot about .075" long in about 5 passes similar to the attached photo.
From this point, I drill a .005" centered hole in the end of the pivot.        To further prove efficiency and capability, the machine must be capable of doing this including the drilling in 90 seconds or less.

I have or have had at least one of the machines being suggested on this thread.   So far, only three have been able to pass the above test, those being the current production Sherline, Cowells and Levin instrument Lathe.

  Again personally, I would not suggest purchasing anything for micro machine without competent demonstrations that will sort out fact from fiction.

Actually the best suggestion I can make, would be to attend  the  "The Micro Lathe for Beginners"  (WS-117) workshop offered by the National Association Of Watch and Clock collectors.
While it is Horological oriented, many others attend from model builders to artist to surgeons in the medical field.  Micro Machining procedures are the same for all types of Micro machining.      This work shop will provide insight to see if Micro machining is something you will have an interest in as well as enough experience to determine equipment purchase.

http://www.nawcc.org

Click on education, then workshops, then current schedule.

If its not for you, you may want to check your area for an organization that offers access to machine tools and operates similar to a health club.   They are popping up in many of the larger cities.

Jerry Kieffer

[10KPete]

Jerry, that's one heck of a test! Makes one think about the subject a bit...

Pete

[b.lindsey]

Interesting test Jerry! Good to know that the Sherline was one that passed, though I am sure I don't push mine that hard.

Bill

[Mosey]

Thanks, Jerry, you have given me alot to think about. I wonder what fact vs. fiction you are referring to? The lathes mentioned are all interesting. The Levin, similar to the Derbyshire in some ways, is probably unaffordable. The Cowells perhaps unobtainable. The Sherline has a wide range of accessories available, which is appealing. I have their rotary table and chucks which are good. I will try your test with my present equipment to see how it goes. I will have a good look at the Sherline CNC and metric threading version. I assume that there is no threading dial available for it.
This is going to be a fun adventure.

Mosey

[Dave Otto]

Jerry

Thanks for your informative post; is this test done on a stock lathe; using standard available speeds and tail stock hand wheel?

Dave

[jerry kieffer]

Thanks, Jerry, you have given me alot to think about. I wonder what fact vs. fiction you are referring to? The lathes mentioned are all interesting. The Levin, similar to the Derbyshire in some ways, is probably unaffordable. The Cowells perhaps unobtainable. The Sherline has a wide range of accessories available, which is appealing. I have their rotary table and chucks which are good. I will try your test with my present equipment to see how it goes. I will have a good look at the Sherline CNC and metric threading version. I assume that there is no threading dial available for it.
This is going to be a fun adventure.

Mosey

Mosey
       First, let me clarify that my comments are directed to those who are serious about machining on a 4" lathe and similar size machine tools.    Micro machining on this size equipment can be very rewarding and is quite easy to master, providing you use proper equipment, proper tooling and efficient methods but will have little in common with larger equipment.     

 The "fact from fiction" comment simply implies that when someone is deeply involved in something, you quickly realize not all internet suggestions are actually based on experience. so Demo`s will sort out the efficient from the inefficient.    To be fair, this should also be applied to my comments where I am always happy to publicly demonstrate at the many shows I attend.

Your equipment and feature preference are excellent examples that will quickly change in actual use.

 While first and second operation lathes are of very high quality and highly efficient for what they are designed for, they are very slow and inefficient to use for general machining.     Part of this, is that they have very little versatility or compatibility with other equipment.

Quick change tooling in a small lathe is size obstructive and decreases capability/efficiency as well as machining observation even if they were repeatable enough for Micro machining.

In all of the years I have been doing this, power feed in this size machine has been UNDESIRABLE and compound slides are rarely if every required.   

Threading attachments can be the life blood of Micro machining.      While larger construction normally only requires a few thread pitches in comparison , micro machining can require hundreds of pitches both inch and metric just not practical with quick change boxes.         The threading attachment is used to make everything from worm gears, Taps/Dies, springs, tapered threaded wood screws, fusees`s and the list goes on forever.    Until you experience it, you will not understand that normal hardware is not available for small projects like large projects and it has to be made. 

Proper lathe alignment is critical to micro machining.     At this point, I only purchase equipment for everyday use where alignment in all directs can be adjusted rather than rely on the manufacturer and live with what I get.     The lathe or other equipment must be able to machine parts  from full envelope size down to smaller than watch size parts.
The attached photo of a fully functional speedometer is an excellent example.       The bezel is .480" in diameter that is fairly large but contains 220 TPI ID  threads for mounting similar to watch size threading.   You are constantly going from one extreme to another.     Some  other internal parts are as small as half of the size of the smallest watch parts.

This is just a small sample of what one will encounter for those who are serious.    If not, then of course anything will do.

Jerry Kieffer

[jerry kieffer]

Jerry

Thanks for your informative post; is this test done on a stock lathe; using standard available speeds and tail stock hand wheel?

Dave

Dave

The example shown in the photo was done on a stock Sherline lathe utilizing Sherlines adjustable tailstock chuck alignment accessory.    However in this case I am using a 1/16" Albrecht  Chuck in place of the standard Sherline Jacobs for increased accuracy.    Another option, is Sherlines adjustable WW collet holding tailstock accessory. A similar collet holding Tailstock is available for the Cowells Lathe or at least was awhile back.

Jerry Kieffer

[Roger B]

That speedo looks splendid    Can I assume it's part of a larger even more magnificent project?

[b.lindsey]

Now there's a visual I didn't need on this snowy day...we are all much to be old to be wearing speedos!! 

Bill

[Roger B]

And too cold for a magnificent project 

[b.lindsey]

Indeed !! Sorry Mosey, you can have your thread back now.

Bill

[Mosey]

Bill, please feel free to indulge your naughty side.
Jerry, I think you are saying that power feed is not desirable or necessary on a micro lathe. If so, wouldn't the Derbyshire then be  a good choice? It could easily be fitted with an adjustable (Sherline) collet or chuck holding tailstock. A hand wheel for threading can be added.
Thanks for your continued input and schooling.
Mosey

[jerry kieffer]

Bill, please feel free to indulge your naughty side.
Jerry, I think you are saying that power feed is not desirable or necessary on a micro lathe. If so, wouldn't the Derbyshire then be  a good choice? It could easily be fitted with an adjustable (Sherline) collet or chuck holding tailstock. A hand wheel for threading can be added.
Thanks for your continued input and schooling.
Mosey

Mosey
          To make a long story short,  (The must be experienced thing) I am assuming that you are referring to the current Derbyshire per this link.

http://www.fwderbyshireinc.com

I will also assume it would be used for general machining.       The last sentence says there is no better lathe.   This is true IF USED per design.   
However this lathe is designed to be used in a manufacturing environment where it will be specially equipped for one or two specific parts as the description indicates.
In a general machining environment, the lathe must be versatile enough to almost immediately adapt to what ever is required.     On top of that, small slides as shown, are very cumbersome and time consuming to use for general use but ideal for special setups where various units can be rapidly exchanged.   The tailstock is to large and heavy to protect micro tooling unless specifically controlled for a specific application as it is designed for.      3C collets are to large for general micro machining in that their physical size limits versatile setups close to the collet.  While, the most efficient way to make a part, is to setup a specific machine to make specific part , one will not have enough life times or space  to equip the many machines that would be required for a typical project.

Roger B asked in so many words, what the speedometer was for.     It is an excellent example for the explanation above.        How many Life times would it take to build the project in the attached photo, if your machine required jigs and special setups for each individual part.     Each part is exact scale and fully functional where compromise on any one part was and is not a consideration.

Jerry Kieffer

[Jasonb]

And interesting thread with some very usefull comments.

One thing that does not seem to have been decided Mosey is what to you actually think you will be wanting to make in your retirement. Jerry talks of Micro Machining which is one end of the scale but what if you want a small lathe but intend to do the largest models possible on it eg a Parsell & Weed on a shereline like Bill?

This will very much influence the criteria for choosing a lathe.

As for a gear box, again think of what you are likely to be making. On each of my modles I may screwcut once or not at all so having to swap a few change wheels is not an issue, but if you are going to be having to make lots of non standard threads then its almost a must especially if you have to make all the fixings for each project.

Same with power cross feed, nice if you regularly are facing parts that are right on the capacity of teh machine but if you are seldom going to work on anything over 3/4" then a steady hand is fine. I managed without power cross feed for many years on larger lathes.

Just my thoughts, J