Author Topic: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)  (Read 242016 times)

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #210 on: January 24, 2016, 06:27:57 PM »
Thanks for looking in Dave, Don, and Joe. Appreciate the support! 

Yes, Joe, quit happy to have gotten many of the rivet holes behind me.  Unfortunately, I've still got more to go.  That's how the cab will be connected to the boiler casing; another row of rivets!  :o
Kim

Offline Bearcar1

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #211 on: January 24, 2016, 07:04:17 PM »
Hiya Kim, Bill is absolutely correct in saying that the real deal, full-sized engines were not as exactly aligned as we would like to believe. Of course be as you are working on a much smaller scale only amplifies the effects of something out of alignment. You are doing a terrific job here and I am enjoying the ride. Keep it up friend, and it will be a beautiful thing to behold. The best IS yet to come.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:


BC1
Jim

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #212 on: January 31, 2016, 02:21:37 AM »
Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the support!

Now I've officially entered into the sheet metal phase of the project.  First up, is the FireBox Wrapper.  This part will wrap around the back end of the Boiler Outer Casing and is made from a piece of 22 gauge steel sheet.

First thing was to mark it out:


Next I used my horizontal bandsaw in 'vertical' mode, and did a rough cutout.  I haven't figured out a better way to cut the sheet metal than to saw it and clean it up.  So that's what I did. After cutting, I clamped it between some pieces of steel and filed it close to my line.  Made it a lot more even at least.


Then I took it to the belt/disk sander and cleaned up the edges a bit more, squaring them up nicely.  After that, I popped center marks for all the rivet holes.  Is there a more accurate way to do this?  This was OK, but it seems there's got to be a more accurate way.


And drilled all the rivet holes.


Here's the FireBox Wrapper, before it is bent into shape.


After bending into shape around the boiler casing, I marked and drilled the bolt holes to attach the horn plates.  I know it would have been easier to drill the holes while it was still flat, before bending, but I was unsure of how much the metal would stretch in the bending process.  All the measurements need to be relative to the centerline of the boiler casing, and until I knew where that fell, I wasn't sure where to put the holes.  Turns out the metal didn't stretch as much as I thought it might, but it did some.  So I'm glad I waited.


Then I had to rivet the FireBox Wrapper to the Boiler Casing.

I finally broke down and purchased some nice #55 drill bits as Dave O (and others I believe) recommended.  I ordered a set of these off Amazon: Cleveland 2133 Style Cobalt Steel Short Length Drill Bit, Bronze Oxide, Round Shank, 135 Degree Split Point, #55 (Pack of 10).  And WOW!  They cut that steel like butter!  I kid you not.  I couldn't BELIEVE the difference.  Not that I ever doubted you Dave, but I had no IDEA how much difference a real drill bit could make.  Wow! Is all I can say.  I am quite irritated with myself for going through so much heartache with those stupid cheap bits.  These cost a couple bucks each, but MAN! What a difference!  Like butter I tell you! :cartwheel:


Anyway, after my religious conversion to US made drill bits, I was pretty pumped.  I put in a rivet there, then drilled for a second hole to help hold the FireBox wrapper in place.  Here's my first two rivets:


For the first two holes I was holding the casing on V-blocks by hand, but this didn't feel very secure (obviously).  So, I worked up this fixture to allow me to fairly easily rotate, clamp, then move into position.  It worked pretty well. Much more secure too.


Using my fixture, I drilled a couple of holes on each side, then set the rivets, then drilled a few more holes, set the rivets, etc.  Another thing I did was to pre-trim the rivets to length.  To do this, used a cast off piece of the DOM tube and a spacer then clipped the pin off flush. After I found a good length for the rivets I used it for all of them. (Not an original idea, I know! I learned it from you all!)


Here's the first row of rivets, completed.  Looks like I'll need to add one more rivet to my horizontal line on the boiler there.


And here's an inside shot.  I'm getting the hang of this riveting thing.  It's going much faster, and I'm not fighting each one as much.  These all went in looking pretty good.  I may have to go back and redo some of my previous rivets.


Here's a shot of the superstructure as it stands now.  Next I'll do that back row of rivets.  Then, the FireBox Throatsheet.


And If you want to join my cult of only using quality drill bits, let me know.  I'm sure there will be a new set of quality drill bits coming my way in the near future! I'll be watching for sales.  If you see any good deals, let me know!

Thanks for following along,
Kim

[edit: changed 20GA to 22GA steel sheet.]
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:50:03 PM by Kim »

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #213 on: January 31, 2016, 03:19:24 AM »
I've been watching you build this boiler as these engines are very interesting to me. Your adventures with riveting have been,
well,...riveting! It's so good to see you have conquered this stubborn task. Keep 'er goin' 'cause I wanna see the rest of the
story!!

Pete
Craftsman, Tinkerer, Curious Person.
Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline fumopuc

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #214 on: January 31, 2016, 06:08:34 AM »
Hi Kim, I am quitely following along.
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #215 on: January 31, 2016, 06:33:03 AM »
Thank you Pete and Achim,

Pete, its amazing what a little practice and experience can do! (very little of course :)).  I feel that I'm going to have to go over the old rivets and replace several.  I think my standards have gone up!

Kim

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #216 on: January 31, 2016, 12:32:29 PM »
Looking excellent and I'm glad things are going well.

I'm with you on drill bits.
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Offline Don1966

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #217 on: January 31, 2016, 02:48:46 PM »
Looks great Kim and glad to see you moving forward bud........... :ThumbsUp:

Don

Offline 10KPete

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #218 on: January 31, 2016, 04:01:23 PM »
Thank you Pete and Achim,

Pete, its amazing what a little practice and experience can do! (very little of course :)).  I feel that I'm going to have to go over the old rivets and replace several.  I think my standards have gone up!

Kim

It's funny how that works.....  :hammerbash:  Age and experience beat youth and strength every time!  :old:

 :cheers:

Pete
Craftsman, Tinkerer, Curious Person.
Retired, finally!
SB 10K lathe, Benchmaster mill. And stuff.

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #219 on: January 31, 2016, 04:06:56 PM »
Thanks for the comments Zee and Don!
Always moving forward, even if it is at a glacial pace Don.
Getting one piece half riveted in place in 2 weeks isn't much different than boring one hole in a week, is it Zee?   :ROFL:

Pete, doesn't someone here have that as their tag line? :)

Kim

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #220 on: January 31, 2016, 04:24:48 PM »
Getting one piece half riveted in place in 2 weeks isn't much different than boring one hole in a week, is it Zee?   :ROFL:

Maybe in time but not in interesting operations.
I have a project I'd like to do some time that requires rivets. I've never done it...so I'm learning a lot here.  :ThumbsUp:
Carl (aka Zee) Will sometimes respond to 'hey' but never 'hey you'.
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Zee-Another Thread Trasher.

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #221 on: January 31, 2016, 04:31:57 PM »
Hey it's all progress in the right direction; even if it is only one hole or one piece of sheet metal.  :lolb:

Great progress on the boiler Shell Kim; It's really staring to look the part. I'm glad the new drills are work out good for you.
Can you summarize what you have found that works for you in setting the rivets; If you did I may have missed it?

I'm working on an assembly that has a number of 3/32 copper rivets to set, and would love to hear what is working for you. After doing some test pieces I have pretty much decided not to attempt to form a full round head on the cut end; they don't show anyway.

Thanks for the update  :ThumbsUp:

Dave

 

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #222 on: January 31, 2016, 04:35:11 PM »
Great to see your progress Kim, and the epiphany 're: US made drills. You are so right, the difference is astounding. Are you looking to get a full letter, number, and fractional set now?

Bill

Offline Roger B

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #223 on: January 31, 2016, 05:21:21 PM »
That's a frightening number of rivets  ::) Enjoying the build  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Best regards

Roger

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #224 on: February 01, 2016, 04:48:43 AM »
Thanks Zee, Bill, Dave, and Roger for the kind words.

Dave, here's the things that have been the biggest help to me on riveting:
  • Annealing the rivets
  • Making sure they are the right length
  • Using an intermediate tool before forming the head
None of these are original with me, of course.  I learned it all from you generous people on this forum.  But this is my assimilation of that knowledge.

I have found that getting the right length on the rivet is very important - if the rivet is is too long, it bends over and makes an off center head, or alternately, it's just too big and gets a ugly in other ways. But if I cut it too short, there's not enough material to form a full head.

I've also found that having a tool that helps to initially spread the rivet really helps.  Even when the rivet is the correct length, it can bend over quite easily. If it does this, the head becomes misshapen and off to one side.   This extra tool helps by expanding the rivet and compressing it shorter so that the rivet head is more easily formed without it bending over.

So I use these three tools, in three steps, to set a rivet:
  • Tool 1: Just has a deep hole that fits over the rivet and pushes everything down to make sure all the space is removed between the material is being riveted.
  • Tool 2: Has a short hole with some relief around the bottom  (picture on the right, labeled 1). This is the tool that expands the rivet and compress it, setting it in place and making it shorter and stouter so it is less likely to bend over.
  • Tool 3: Rounded tool to form the head (picture on the right, labeled 2).

(This is a really cool picture. I  didn't draw it, but I can't remember where I got it from.  So if any of you know, please let me know so I can give appropriate attribution.  It was a very helpful picture for me!)

If, however, the rivet is only exposed on one side, like the ones I've been doing for the boiler shell here, then I use the factory made head on the outside and make the 'formed head' on the inside. In these cases I cut the rivet shorter than the official specified length (the "official" specified length is shown in the left diagram).  A shorter rivet makes a little mushroom head instead of a well shaped, rounded rivet head.  But I do this because I can't use that tool 2 that I find so helpful on the inside. And without that middle tool, I almost always get the bending over thing, and the rivet just won't set right.  So for these non-standard rivets, I cut the rivet a little shorter (i.e. not enough material to form a full head), use the rounded tool (Tool 3) on the outside to keep the factory formed rivet head nice, and set the rivet that way.

This has been working pretty well for me.

This would probably work for you in your situation Dave.  Or you could try that intermediate tool #2.  I really found that to help a lot. (read about it in Stan's boiler build).

And of course, I'm learning how to do it without leaving as many marks on the surrounding material.  But it still happens.  I'm still not that good. :)
Kim
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 05:56:08 PM by Kim »

 

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