Author Topic: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)  (Read 172497 times)

Offline Don1966

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2015, 07:49:44 PM »
Hi Kim, glad to see some progress on your tractor. The parts look great and like Dave said practice on a piece but use a scrap the same size so you can judge the heat needed. Keep the torch concentrated on the steel wheel and not the spokes. Move you flame in and out as you heat.  Make sure it is well cleaned before soldering and apply flux to each spoke points inside and outside areas.
As for the parting make sure you blade is square to the axis of the lathe and is at least .0625diameter. Use a slow feed when cutting. I get those convex shapes also when cutting brass. The wider the blade the less it will flex.

Regards Don

fcheslop

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2015, 10:50:28 PM »
Hi Kim, the parts look well :ThumbsUp: Following with interest as its on my build list
hard soldering may be a bit messy. I plan on following Rudy and simply soft soldering just make sure the parts are very clean over here I will be using Bakers fluid(killed spirits) when the parts are clean enough it will wet the surface and not form little globules .I plan on forming the solder wire into small rings one for each end of the spoke and putting a small counter sink for the solder to form into or I may use solder paint on assembly.
The parting tool for brass needs to be very sharp or at least thats what Iv found and I tend to use a fast feed but dont know whats recommended.
cheers
frazer

Online b.lindsey

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2015, 11:23:34 PM »
Nice update and the wheels look great. Soldering the spikes to the hub should go well. Soldering the spokes to the rims will definitely take more heat. I agree with Don and Dave, a practice session would be good.

Bill

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2015, 06:18:31 AM »
Thanks for the helpful comments Dave, Done, Frazer, and Bill,

Hmm... Lots of smart people are recommending the soft solder for this, so I may need to reconsider!  :thinking: Today I did some experimenting on the hard soldering.  I tried to use similar parts, but they weren't exactly the same. I was thinking it was coming out fairly well, but I only had 1/16" steel rather than the 1/8" steel that the real part will be. That's probably a pretty big difference right there. More practice is certainly in order.

I'll post some pics of my practice soon and you can see how I'm doing.  I'll try some 1/8" steel too. I can certainly get the heat - I've recently picked up an Oxy-Acetylene torch. That really puts out the heat fast!  But I guess the worry is melting the brass spokes away before I get the steel up to temp!

Maybe soft solder would be best here.  And it would likely make less of a mess, which I'm finding a challenge to clean up between all those spokes!

Thanks for all the great comments!
And thanks again for the wonderful Dinner, Bill! :)
Kim

 

Online b.lindsey

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2015, 03:31:26 PM »
Kim, lately I have had some nice results using the silver bearing soft solder from PMR, along with the liquid flux they supply with it. I haven't verified, but have been told you can get the same stuff via your local welding supply store. Maybe someone can add the brand name for it. Might be worth a try.

Bill

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #50 on: October 04, 2015, 03:45:01 PM »
Thanks Bill,

Dave recommended the Harris Stay Brite solder and Stay Clean flux, which is listed as silver bearing solder.  I've found that on Amazon and was going to give that a try.  If anyone has any other recommendations, I'd be happy to hear!

Thanks,
Kim

Offline Don1966

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #51 on: October 04, 2015, 05:18:31 PM »
Kim this is what works for me it's weldcote easy flow 56% silver. Believe me this stuff flows beautifully. They also sell the flux.

Don

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2015, 05:32:13 PM »
The Harris Sta-Brite is a silver bearing solder; this would be the low temp. soft solder option. It melts and flows at ~ 430 degrees F.
If I'm going to soft solder something it is my go to product.

They do make a liquid flux but the paste flux is much easier to deal with; also it turns a dark caramel color when the temp is correct. Cleans up easily with strong detergent and hot water.
When doing fine work on little parts I will pound it out flat and cut it into thin slivers with scissors.

Dave

Online b.lindsey

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2015, 05:38:28 PM »
I think Dave and I are talking about the same solder, the only difference being the flux, liquid vs. paste. Good stuff either way. IIRC its 4% silver.

Bill

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2015, 02:53:37 AM »
Here are the pictures of my silver soldering attempts from yesterday that I threatened you with.

This is my test assembly setup for heating. I cleaned the parts, got flux on them, and placed a bit of silver solder right at each joint.


On my first attempt, I made lots of mistakes.  First, I used too much solder - I put pieces above and below the wheel, and that was too much.  Also, I tried to do a bunch of joints at one time. Bad idea.  Some places got so hot that the brass rod melted (lower right) and others just didn't get enough heat.  Most of the spokes just pulled right out.  Not so good, but it was my first try.


I switched to a smaller tip (a #000 - I had been using a #0) and worked on a single joint at a time, only put 1/2 a circle of solder ABOVE the joint, and heated it up from the underside.  That went much better.  No picture, but it was better!  (Bill, that's the test piece you saw last night :))
Following these initial experiments, I packed up and got ready to go have dinner with Bill.

That was yesterday.

Today, after reading all the comments and recommendations I went back for some more practice.  I got a test piece that more closely matched the joint I would be doing -  1/8" steel rather than the 1/16".  And I attacked each joint one at a time, and this time, I stood the wheel up on end so that I had gravity working for me when the solder started flowing.  Here's my setup - Flux & solder)


The thicker steel took significantly longer to heat up the joints (he says, stating the obvious :)), but I was actually quite pleased with how the joints turned out. 


After doing 6 of these, here's where I was:


You can see that the top left joint is very poor.  In fact, the spoke just dropped out.  I think that I'd taken so long to heat this one that the flux burned off and the metal oxidized before it got to the melting temp.
After that, I tried a few more, and a bunch of these joints I did with soft solder.  That actually worked out pretty well.  It was much easier to do, went faster and didn't make such a mess.

Here's the test piece after some rough cleanup.


I think I'm about ready to do the real thing now.  I've ordered some of that Stay Brite solder that Dave & Bill have recommended. It should be here by next weekend when I'll have more time to work!

Thanks for following along on my (painfully slow) adventures!
Kim
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 08:52:17 PM by Kim »

Offline Don1966

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2015, 03:39:09 AM »
Hi Kim,
   Well you did try the silver solder, but you didn't heed my warning about using the lowest heat first and keep the heat on the large part.  You learned that on the first attempt. Looks like the second tip was doing pretty good. The small ring of solder around the spoke is great. The one question I have is, was the hole the same size as the spoke or bigger? The hole has to be bigger to acquire solder into the hole. The flux should not burn off before the solder reaches melting point. This could be because you used the wrong flux. It should look wet when you reach the melting point of the solder. Doing one spoke at a time is the correct way to go about soldering it, but you have to keep the flame off the metal after you see the solder flowing or you could over heat it. Then you will start getting oxidation because you are getting it to hot. Less heat is better because less chance of overheating until you learn to control the heat by moving the torch in and out as needed. Kim I hope you continue to experiment with the silver solder and you will see it is not as hard as you think. Using easy flow silver solder or high silver content helps to get you where you want. I use to cringe when I first started to silver solder until I learned how easy it can be. Preparation is the number one step to good soldering. That involves clean metal, good control of your heat, good solder and flux,a good setup so you can get to all points in one setting, an a good train of thoughts..... ( in other words, don't panic)  :lolb:

Regards Don
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 03:45:02 AM by Don1966 »

Offline Kim

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2015, 05:37:57 AM »
Hi Don,
True.  Though I "THOUGHT" I was using low heat.  I thought I'd put on the smallest tip, I just happened to get the wrong one.  And I've got so little experience with my new torch, I didn't catch my mistake for a while. :embarassed:

And unfortunately, even with the best advise, I often find I make mistakes anyway, and THEN I understand what the advise means and can apply it better (if that makes any sense).

It may be the thickness of the material I'm soldering, but I found that sometimes, when the solder started to flow, the far side of the joint wasn't hot enough to get the solder to flow all around (apparently I haven't got the 'even heating' down fully yet), so I had to heat more on the other side.  I think this is when I sometimes ended up with the joints that that didn't solder well. So it might be as you describe - I held the heat on too long and caused the oxidization that way.  I'm getting better, but still quite the novice at the silver soldering.

As for the size of the hole, its drilled with a 3/32" bit, but its nice slip fit.  The solder seems to wick through the hole and all around the spoke quite well (at least, when I've done the other parts correctly! :)).

I think soft solder is a much better way to go with this assembly, as you and others advised!

I really do appreciate the advise. Even if it doesn't always look like I'm following it, I do try, and I am learning!  :-\
Kim

Offline fumopuc

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2015, 06:08:07 AM »

..........
And unfortunately, even with the best advise, I often find I make mistakes anyway, and THEN I understand what the advise means and can apply it better (if that makes any sense).


Hi Kim, thatīs the way I always do it like too.
When I have trained my solder skills it took some time to understand what it means  to heat the material and not the solder.
And also the advice, solder will always flow into the direction of the heat.
In your case, I would do the set up similar to yours. Some solder into the flux at the inside of the rim.
The heat will come only from the outside of the rim and only around the spoke, so never direct to the spoke or the gap between spoke and rim.
If the rim around the spoke will get the right temperature, the solder will come from the inside of the rim through the small gap around the spoke against the heat from itself.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:10:15 PM by fumopuc »
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline Nicolas

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2015, 07:16:21 AM »
Will definitely be following this. Looks like you're off to a good start :)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
« Reply #59 on: October 05, 2015, 08:08:20 AM »
Thats one of teh problems with using Oxy, it is a very local heat so you may have one part hot enough for the solder to flow but not all of it.

The other problem with using heat on a wheel rim rather than test pieces is the fact the rim will expand as you heat it and move away from the hub, this then gives you problems as it cools and the spoke can't slide back out of the hole. Soft solder will put a lot less heat into the rim so less expansion.

My Galloway cart has the ends of the spokes soft soldered and they support a far heavier engine (50lbs) than your tractor. There are also a lot less spokes.