Author Topic: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom  (Read 6717 times)

Offline gmac

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X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« on: July 21, 2015, 08:24:57 PM »
This fall / winter I plan to put my Busy Bee X2 mill to use and get more familiar with it. To date the work I've done on it has been with cheap chinese HSS end mills and relatively small amounts of material removal. It hasn't been challenged so I don't know it's limits. Stock and fitted with the plastic gears (no belt conversion yet).

Initially I will need to do a lot of stock removal on 1.5" square keystock (1040 steel ?) but also expect to do similar on 6061 and 1144.

Having done some reading I'm considering buying a few solid carbide end mills (roughing and finishing) - not chinese made (on the assumption there is better out there).

Can the collective keep me from making foolish mistakes (ha!!) by suggesting appropriate end mills for this class of mill (it's the only one I have)? Among the questions that have come to mind are;

1. for removing / profiling a reasonable amount of material (engine side covers, crankcases, cylinder heads etc) how large a diameter of end mill do you suggest? The largest I've been working with has been 3/8" dia.

2. how many flutes? 2,3,4 ? For aluminum? For steel?  I assume the 4 flute with cause less vibration on the X2.

3. is it worth considering the roughing/hogging mills or is this too aggressive for the X2? The chipbreakers seem to be available in coarse or fine, but not sure that either would work for me.

4. is there a type of end mill that will serve dual purpose - steel and aluminum - in order to reduce my expense, or am I daydreaming? Again.....

Glad to hear all and any advise. Thanks in advance!

Cheers Garry

Offline cfellows

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2015, 04:59:22 AM »
Here's a bit of what I use with my Enco Mill Drill.  For Aluminum, I generally use 2 flute end mills.  Four flute end mills, particularly in smaller sizes, tend to gum up.  I use roughing mills up to 1/2" diameter with 4 flutes.  I call them corn cob mills.  These things will really remove stock from aluminum.  They also work on steel but require lighter cuts.  For most work, I rarely use anything larger than 3/8" diameter unless I'm surfacing, in which case I use a flycutter or I also have a 3/4" diameter, 2 flute end mill with a 1/2" shank that I also use for surfacing.  Also, other than the roughing mill, I rarely use 4 flute mills.  I have some 3/8", 3 flute mills that work well, but mostly 2 flute. 

For starters, I would probably recommend some 2 flute mills in 1/8, 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8 diameters as well as a set of fly cutters.  I buy Kyocera end mills through a local dealer here in Round Rock, Tx (SparkTech) and they also sell on EBay.  I don't know where the end mills are made, but I get good service from them.   It also helps prolong the life and sharpness if you rig an air system to continuously blow the chips away from the cutter.  Use a very small orifice, like a MIG welder tip, and run the air at aroud 5 or 10 PSI.   Word of caution with carbide end mills.  Be very protective of the cutting corners and edges.  They will chip with the slightest knock against a hard surface if you drop them or leave them loose in a drawer with other end mills.  They are also sharp as a razor and leave a nasty gash if you happen to inadvertently drag the back of your hand across the tip.  Ask me how I know that!

Chuck

So many projects, so little time...

Offline Thor

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2015, 06:39:31 AM »
Hi Garry,

 I agree with Chuck, on my X2 I rarely use slot drills (2 flute end mills) larger than 10mm (3/8"). Chinese cutting tools vary in quality, the best slot drills I have are Dormer and some German made. For aluminium use slot drills (2 flute), you can get slot drills especially made for aluminium, might be worth to try them.

Thor

Offline Stuart

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2015, 08:01:10 AM »
Garry

For Ali do not use a coated cutter the coating puts a very small rad on the cutting edge ( it's applied after the cutter is ground) they are ok for steel

Now this is my view

Use good quality cutters ,they cut better and last longer
Keep a set for brass , they will not cut brass well after they have tasted steel

I have a SX3 and my normal max size is 10mm any flute number but I prefer not to use coated cutters the only coated ones I will use are Dormer brand but they are pricey 😢


Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Jo

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2015, 08:33:33 AM »
Don't forget the good old flycutter.

I may have purchased  :-X the odd disposable milling cutter but as I own a cutter grinder so my usual technique for acquiring cutters is to buy a fist full of quality old blunt cutters for a few pennies and resharpen them  ;D.

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2015, 10:26:42 AM »
upto about 8mm the diosposable FC-3 type work out wuite economiocal, I wait until the likes of MSC have them on offer and get teh uncoated ones. They can also be sharpened if you want to and have the equipment, the only reason they were classed "disposable" is that commercially it would not be worth having them sharpened as that would cost more than the cutter, different situation in the home shop.

Larger sizes I use cheapie far eastern ones on castings that may have a had spot and keep the better quality named brand ones for best.

Not your side of the pond but I was sent a couple of these to try a while back and they are very good, full stock has just arrived. 10mm and over they are a good buy but below that I will stick with the FC-3 type. They come off the same production line of some of the big name makers so exactly the same quality. I just bought some that were delivered yesterday.

Offline Jo

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2015, 10:44:58 AM »
:headscratch: 8mm FC3s. I have both inferior and metric FC3 cutter holders and they are only 1/4" and 6mm. I had not seen any with bigger ends than shanks.

Not that I would buy them  :lolb:

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2015, 01:27:14 PM »
The Hertel ones come with 6, 10 & 12mm or 1/4 & 3/8 shanks. Metric go upto 12mm, imperial upto 3/8. All have ends equal or smaller than the shank, none with big cutting dia on small shank.

Sounds like you need to go out and buy some more larger tooling and some cutters to suit :LittleDevil:

Offline Jo

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2015, 02:31:27 PM »
 :headscratch: I think you are confusing different cutters here Jason "FC3" is a product range by  Clarkson-Osborn also referred to as their Micro Cutter series available in metric 6mm shank, and inferior 6.35mm shank.

The Hertel cutters conform to DIN 844 and come in various shank sizes.

Quote
Sounds like you need to go out and buy some more larger tooling and some cutters to suit

I could do with a 25mm collet for my medium autolock but they are as rare as rocking horse Do-Da's so I might have to take Mr Silky up on his offer to make one for me  :embarassed: Above that I normally use a dead lock chuck or this holder with shell mills. But I would not recommend using them on a X2  :hellno:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline gmac

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2015, 07:16:23 PM »
Big thanks to Chuck and all those who replied!!

I currently have a 10 pcs set of chinese HSS mills - 3/16" thru 3/4" non-coated; and three coated HSS (1/8', 0.25" and 0.375"). Add to this several fly cutters. Since my cutting needs are set to increase I wanted something more durable and (hopefully) more high performance within the limits of the X2's capabilities. This had me looking at other options - USA/Euro made HSS, M42 Cobalt and possibly carbide. But - I'm not a rich man  :shrug:.

Initially I considered buying a few Niagara, M.A. Ford, TMX, or Garr M42 Cobalt HSS cutters. However........then I saw this gentleman's comparison of HSS vs. carbide on what he called hobby mills;

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOEkoSvA30A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOEkoSvA30A</a>

This has me rethinking. He's made the carbides work at the lower RPM's (1300 rpm) of smaller mills (his is 1 HP). My question is if the X2 has enough power to push them ...... well enough? And can I justify the price increase to carbide.

Does anyone have experience with carbide on the X2 or similar machine? Help me make a decision  :insane:

Thanks again folks.

Cheers Garry

Offline gmac

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2015, 07:18:44 PM »
P.S.  the end mills I currently have are all 4 flute - out of ignorance and availability more than anything else.

Cheers Garry

Offline Overbuilt and Overkill

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2015, 05:52:02 AM »
Gmac,
I'm a big fan of Stefans videos. He's a fantastic tool designer and machinist who tends to think well outside the box. But you'll note he's not using an X2 mill in that comparison. And while solid carbide can and does work on some of the much larger manual mills. It's generally accepted that to get the absolute best from carbide a very rigid mill design does the best job. Even a Bridgeport really isn't the most rigid of machines. It logically can't be due to it's cantilevered position for the head design. The Bridgeports and there clones are a fine mill. There just not the worlds most rigid. 

You could use the carbide because of chilled iron castings just to get yourself through the hard spots. But I wouldn't expect them to last very long. And I did own an X2. But for a day to day cutting tool? I honestly don't think an X2 mill has enough built in rigidity to allow solid carbide to live it's proper lifespan verses there rather high cost. I do really like the Niagara HSS endmills, and think there's a massive difference between the cheap Chinese HSS end mills and the very good quality ones such as those Niagara's. Enough so that the much higher price is more than returned in much longer tool life and the cut quality.

You could try a good brand name of solid carbide in something like a 3/8ths diameter and see what you think about the cost verses the life span you get. I am doubtful and would really hate to see anyone waste a great deal of money on something that might not work like they expect it should. 

If you were to go all out on some of the column modifications that are all over the net then I think that would help carbide to last a lot longer. The other option would be to buy some replaceable tip end mills and use some less brittle grades of carbide tips that aren't as touchy about needing the absolute best machine tool rigidity you can get.

And Jo mentioned using a fly cutter. I very much agree with that. You do have to be very careful you don't take too large of a depth of cut with them as they can hammer a set of spindle bearings to death even in a Bridgeport fairly quick. But I will chose a flycutter over an endmill if I can use one because I don't have a tool and cutter grinder, and I can afford the extra time a single lipped cutting tool takes over a multi toothed end mill.

Greg   

Offline sshire

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2015, 12:18:46 PM »
Re: Bridgeport rigidity

There is the recurring comment on the "professional" machining forums that goes something like "Bridgeports are about as rigid as wet spaghetti."
The people making these comments are generally running machining centers weighing in at tens of thousands of pounds.
But, it's not a valid comparison or metric ( if spaghetti is a metric) for what we do.
When we make parts for our engines, even on a big (for us) engine like the PMR 1/4 horses, we're not concerned with how fast can we push a cutter or how large a D.O.C. can we take. It's much more about how precisely we can make a part and how good is the finish.
Look at George Britnell's engines. Would they be any more precise on a big Haas VMC? Granted the Haas could produce many of them much more quickly.
I use both carbide and HSS cutters on the BP. The parts are generally to the drawing dimensions and within stated tolerance. Anything rejected by my QC Dept (me) was my fault, and had nothing to do with the mill's rigidity or precision.
The surface finish from my indexable carbide face mills or boring head is excellent.
It seems that we should be looking at feeds and speeds differently than those that are correct for a VMC. The standard for me is not how fast can I push a part out of the machine without killing the cutter, it's much more about accuracy and surface finish.
Whether it's a Sherline, an X2, or a Bridgeport, our work is different than a production environment. Small parts in brass, bronze, 6000 series aluminum, Durabar or free machining steel, made in very small quantities to tight tolerances.
End of rant.

Best,
Stan

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2015, 05:51:48 PM »
I'm going to chime in with Vern (Stan) here. When I played golf,  everyone was looking for that one special club or ball that gave them the "best". When I started flying,  everyone wanted the latest and greatest GPS and noise cancelling headphones.  When I started shooting skeet,  everyone wanted the custom fitted stack barrel and the perfect loaded shell.  Let's face it,  at this stage in our lives, we are willing to try and buy "perfection" In 90% of the time, with the machine capabilities most of have, we would be a lot better off buying a big lot of HSS blanks, a few grinding wheels, and spending our time and not money on learning to grind them to fit our machines. I'm as quilty as anyone, if not more so. I've laughed to myself many times about the way we go about things and all the "toys" we have to have to recreate engines made with treadles, files, scrapers,  and line shafts. I guess I'm saying that if you can and want to,  try all avenues, but,  it's a hobby,  ain't nothing wrong with light cuts and slower speeds and feeds. End my rant, Vern.

Cletus

Offline Jo

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
I have a Mr Silky: He likes fast and deep. Did I mention his screwing ability  :embarassed:

Now I am looking for a milling machine to match his qualities  ::)

Jo
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Offline sshire

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2015, 07:01:01 PM »
Incorrigible
Best,
Stan

Offline gmac

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2015, 09:55:30 PM »
Thanks to all who commented.

I decided to limit myself to a selection of USA made M-42 cutters for the time being. Plus one carbide 3 flute 1/4" - to play with and compare. The M-42's are all 2 flute and will supplement my set of 4 flute HSS chinese cutters.

If I find an advantage in the M-42's I'll slowly start accumulating Niagara, M.A. Ford or Garr M-42 mills.

I finished the urgent project in 1040 steel using the Chinese HSS 4 flute mills and found I could remove more material faster than I'd anticipated. Although I managed to ruin a 3/8" end mill - it was as if there was a hard spot or inclusion in the 1.5" x 1.5" keystock. It still plunge cuts but doesn't like to side cut. Up until then I'd been dry cutting - as an experiment and to avoid the mess  :slap: after that Rapid Tap cutting fluid - I know - wrong again but it's all I had!!.

I'll hold off on carbide purchases unless the one I bought proves to be some kind of miracle. I'd like to see how it compares with the HSS and M-42 before spending any more money.

Greg - I hear your comments re the X2's rigidity and understood that Stefan was using a more powerful mill. I'm looking at carbide primarily from the point of view of cutter life and maybe as a side benefit, greater DOC than I'm used to. Just looking to save a bit of time on profiles and plunge/slot cuts - no intent of production runs. I'm a ways off from building a multi-cylinder engine  :naughty:.

I've made myself comfortable free hand grinding HSS lathe toolbits and am now trying to find the sweet spot in end mill selection.

Again - thanks for the guidance everyone!

Cheers Garry

Offline dalee

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Re: X2 Mill - End Mill Recommendations and Wisdom
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2015, 11:05:07 PM »
Hi,

A bit late to this thread.

I make chips for a living by day and fool around at home when I get the chance with benchtop 8x14 lathe and a Grizzly G0704 mill. So I get to see and use stuff at both ends of the endmill spectrum. US made tools are pretty good, but are far from the only game in town anymore. Others make cutters as good or arguably better and cheaper these days. At work I can justify the best because time is money and shaved seconds can literally count. At home, I have more time than money. And tooling costs come from saved potato money like everyone else.

First carbide vs HSS. Can't live without the stuff at work, particularly in the smaller sizes of 1/2"-12mm or less. And carbide endmills will run just fine on a benchtop mill at those speeds and feeds we can from our machines. But I don't find it cost effective at home. Too much money for the amount of use it will get. So I prefer HSS endmills at home because they are cheaper and will give nearly as good of performance for the money spent.

The basic Cheap, Cheerful Chinese M2 HSS endmill can run from junk to pretty darned good. When buying them look at the dealer's reputation more than the Made in China mark. A good tool seller will tend to buy from factories that make better stuff. A step up from Chinese M2 is the Chinese M2Al that is becoming quite popular these days. I've been buying them a fair bit for home use. While I will tell you M2Al isn't the equivalent of M42, it is a very noticeable step up from the run of the mill import M2. And at a minor increase of only a couple dollars per cutter, has become my go to choice at home.

If you troll places like eBay for cutting tools, sometimes you can find good deals even yet today. When I start trolling, I look for odd sizes. Few want 9/32" endmills it seems. But they cut just as well as the more costly 1/4" and 5/16" you find on the "Bay. Look closely at the imported cutters. Not all come from China. Korean endmills often sell for little money but are every bit as good, (or better), as US made tools. Polish and former Yugoslav tooling is good stuff. So are Israeli brands. All often sold at discount because they aren't well known to hobbyists. I also look for resharps. Why? For some reason, even "professionals" want new. But to me, resharps are like gold. I recently picked up 3 resharp solid carbide endmills, (two 3/8" and a 3/4"), for less than the cost of one new 3/8" carbide.

2flute vs 4flute endmills. Each have uses that the other isn't as good at. I use 2 flutes when I need chip clearance. Like milling softer, stickier materials like aluminum or plastics or in confined spaces like slots or blind holes. The downside to 2 flute cutters is slower feeds and depths of cut due to flexing. And poorer surface finishes when side milling with them. The 4 flutes can be fed faster because of two more cutting edges and will give a better finish when side milling. But often do poorly in soft, sticky plastics and non-ferrous metals. So a decent selection of both types is a good thing.

Dalee

 

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