Author Topic: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale  (Read 58047 times)

Online Jo

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2015, 07:12:54 AM »
I stripped and updated the ancient electronics and stepper motors with readily available modern stuff. I have used these old machines for over 15 years to produce a number of engines and other projects. It could be true what they say about the sweetest music coming from the oldest violins.

........

Oh! I wish it were really that simple. Ha ha.

 :naughty: I assume you mean that the CNC is almost human as it too can provide unique features to each individual item that the rest of us thought can only be created by hand  ;).

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2015, 07:38:38 AM »
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with itís 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2015, 08:08:00 AM »
The full size Mercedes-Benz W165 engine had a displacement of 1,495 cc. The bore and stroke being 64  mm x 58 mm
The 1:3 scale model of the W165 engine will have a displacement of 55.4 cc and a bore and stroke of 21.3 mm x 19.3 mm

Hope this clears your confusion
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 08:27:19 AM by Vixen »
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Offline DavidF

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2015, 06:05:51 PM »
Im scratching my head here trying to figure this one out.  Its a 1.5L V8??   Whats the bore and stroke of the engine, then what will the scale of the model be?  Looking forward to seeing your progress :)

 :headscratch:

"The W165 racing car with itís 1.5 litre V8 engine"

And the title of the thread " Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale"

  vixen cleared it up.  I was curious as to the bore and stroke since a 1.5 Litre v8 is pretty small displacement wise for a v8, but looks quite large when looking at it on youtube videos.
But yes I did miss the 1:3 scale in the title  :facepalm2:

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2015, 06:34:09 PM »
David,
I agree, 1.5 litre is a very small capacity for a V8, compared to the enormous V8 engines you race in the States.

However the regulations for that one race in Tripoli stipulated 1.5 litres, so that is what Mercedes-Benz designed and built to power the W165. The W165 was a miniature V8 version of their highly successful 3.0 litre V12 W163 Grand Prix engine.

When motor racing resumed in Europe, in the last 1940's, the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2015, 06:47:51 PM »
I suppose size for size they would be similar to a couple of 750cc V4 motorbike engines bolted end to end so plenty of power at high revs :)

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2015, 06:58:17 PM »
Jason
Yes exactly the same as two superbike engines, but don't forget to add the two stage supercharger pumping nitrobenzene into those cylinders at 2.6 bar (39 psi).  I can smell that marzipan smell of the fuel from here.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 06:22:18 PM by Vixen »
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Offline DavidF

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2015, 07:10:47 PM »
Quote
the BRM team went even further and designed and built a 1.5 litre V16.

 :insane: :insane: :insane:

Wish I could get a look insied that one! 

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2015, 07:36:24 PM »
David,
Your wish is my command.
Here is a longitudinal and lateral cross section drawing of the over ambitious 1.5 litre BRM V16.
The bore and stroke of this little baby was a mere 49.3mm x 47.8mm
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage centrifugal supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 11:29:47 PM by Vixen »
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Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2015, 07:38:42 PM »
If I may step out of my redneck shell, I would just like to say,  that during this era,  engines were built wit the  precision of a fine turbuillion movement.  It was done by hand. To me it's much more impressive than what can be produced today by technology.  Remember when all the really good gun makers still hand filed and fitted,  but,  that's just my thinking  :shrug:

Cletus

Offline Allen Smithee

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2015, 07:57:45 PM »
David,
The BRM V16 revved to over 10,000 rpm and had a Rolls-Royce designed two-stage axial supercharger similar to the one from the Merlin aircraft engine (Spitfire and Mustang)

ITYM "centrifugal supercharger".

AS
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Offline DavidF

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2015, 04:36:12 AM »
they're both pretty impressive engines for their time. I think I like the v8 better design wise as it is what I am more accustomed to seeing and would pt more trust into it performing. But no mater how you look at it, its pretty amazing what the builders did with the design without the resources we have today.

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2015, 05:37:54 PM »
3A    Supercharger Gearcase

Time to start cutting metal

I now have sufficient completed drawings to confirm that the largest part, the crankcase will fit onto my mill. The crankcase overall length is 7.5 " and the X axis travel on the mill is 8". It will fit (only just) and could be machined, provided I am very careful with positioning the billet during the set up.

I decided to make a start with the two stage supercharger. It is very a very prominent feature on the front of the engine. I reasoned that if I could complete the supercharger successfully then the rest of the engine would follow. If the supercharger turned out badly, I would stop there.

I ordered in enough stock material for two superchargers. My choice for aluminium alloy is always grade 6082T6 (HE30TF). It is hard, strong and machines beautifully and readily available from most aluminium stockists.

The first component to be made was to be the supercharger gearcase. This gearcase contains the gears which synchronize the rotation of the compressor lobes and prevents them touching each other. It also contains the drive gears from the crankshaft. The full size gearcase was a magnesium casting , I machined the ones for my model from a solid billet of aluminium.

You can see the toolpath display generated for machining the internal details and also the corresponding first step of machining this into the  billet of aluminium. I always machine the critical features as the first operation. For this particular component, it was the positions of the gear shafts, their bearing cavities and all the interface bolt holes. After that, it was many, many small toolpath programs and machining steps to contour the remaining internal and external features. Eventually I had reduced most of the billet to small chips and was quite relieved to find a gearcase inside that aluminium billet. Most of the work was done using 6mm and 8mm diameter ball cutters in order to create the well rounded 'casting' look. The feeds and speeds for ball mills is a lot lower than for a normal end mill.

The strange looking feature on the left side is the cast in oil filter housing. The oil filter is a multi plate edge filter which literally scrapes the debris from the oil. The small handle is used to rotate the filter plates once in a while, to clear the debris from the edge of the filter plates.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 10:31:16 PM by Vixen »
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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2015, 05:41:24 PM »
3B    The completed supercharger gearcase

Here are the some photos of the completed gearcase and oil filter housing






« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 10:47:08 PM by Vixen »
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Offline RMO

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2015, 07:06:16 PM »
Beautiful!