Author Topic: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale  (Read 55509 times)

Offline steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #90 on: June 05, 2016, 01:02:05 PM »
OOOOOOH!!!    Hirth joints, and silver lined bronze bearing shells..........that'll keep you out of trouble Mike!    I like it!!!!

Thanks for sharing that SCO!

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2016, 01:17:51 PM »
I know - that Hirth crank gets me going too!

Simon.
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Offline steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2016, 02:10:13 PM »
Mike, as I recall....perhaps incorrectly, you have one of the larger Aciera mills?   F2 or F3?

That would be the perfect weapon for the Hirth joints I think....

Dave
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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2016, 02:26:29 PM »
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?





The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 01:50:55 PM by Vixen »
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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2016, 02:35:52 PM »
Hello Dave,

My mills are small Emco F1 table top milling machines. I have the option to turn the quill through 90 degrees to give a horizontal mode.

From my previous post you can see that I have a one piece crankshaft in mind for my W165 engine, based on the evidence from the available MB blueprints. The one-piece crankshaft does have a Hirth coupling at either end. At the rear the flywheel is attached via a Hirth coupling as is the supercharger drive at the front.

There is no getting away from the Hirth coupling on engines designed in the pre-war era.

Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 02:39:05 PM by Vixen »
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Offline steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2016, 02:46:39 PM »
Hey Mike,

That looks like a "conventional"  pivoting lever follower, is that correct?

Dave
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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #97 on: June 05, 2016, 02:51:49 PM »
Hello Dave,

That's how I read the blueprint.

Incidentally, there are two inlet and two exhaust valves per cylinder.

Cheers

Mike
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Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2016, 09:17:24 PM »
Hello Simon,

Thanks for posting those very interesting photos. I am not sure what to make of them. I'm not sure they are parts for the W165, my guess is the W196 of the Stirling Moss/Fangio era.


I am working to MB blueprints liberated by British Intelligence investigators in 1947. These show an engine with a one piece crankshaft with split main and split con-rod roller bearings. Brian Perkins has found reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. Could this be what you have found?




The camshaft in your photo, is clearly a four cylinder Desmo camshaft. We know that Rudolf Uhlenhaut designed the 2.5 litre W196 as a staight eight with two banks of four cylinders. As far as I know the W196 was the first venture by Mercedes into Desmo valve gear. My guess is the photos are of parts from that engine. I could be wrong, I am not that knowledgeable about the post war Mercedes cars.

Thanks again for posting these photos. I appreciate your help.

Research is all about turning over every leaf and analyzing what you find, some days are diamonds, some days are stone.

Cheers

Mike

Mike,

It's easily possible that these are W196 parts rather than W165 - apologies for leading you up the garden path.  They were in a display area at work - I'll check the labelling tomorrow if they are still there - it could be that they are miss-labelled but more likely I have got my numbers mixed up.

Apologies again,

Simon.
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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2016, 09:45:23 PM »
Hello Simon,

There is absolutely no need to apologise. Any numbering system rather than a name is bound to lead to a confusion one day.

I am led to believe that MB are re-manufacturing many parts for the W196 engines because they have used all the available spare parts at the Classic Centre in Fellbach. It could be you have some of the used components in your display area.

Thanks for thinking of me in the first place.

Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 09:53:33 PM by Vixen »
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Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2016, 01:19:53 PM »
Mike,

I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

So I think you are right about the camshaft, but if the label is correct then these are indeed W165 parts.

Hope that helps,

Simon.
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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2016, 02:57:43 PM »
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

This is getting to be very interesting.

The first two W165's were built in eight months during the winter of 1938/39 and competed in their one and only race in Tripoli in May 1939. It was widely anticipated that the next Grand Prix engine formula change would be to 1.5 litre supercharged or 4.5 litre un-supercharged. History shows that Mercedes Benz continued their race car developments during 1940 and the early part of 1941, while the rest of Europe was in flames. It is reasonable to assume they would put a lot of effort into developing the 1.5 litre W165 as far as possible to be ready for the new formula. The new formula did come into effect in 1946 but Mercedes Benz were then in no position to compete.

Brian Perkins has discovered a reference to a special Hirth crankshaft being made by Mahle for the W165 with one piece conrods to overcome possible weakness in the big end bearings. No further details have been found. Perhaps you have unearthed the missing evidence. Now that would be interesting!!!!

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 03:05:50 PM by Vixen »
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Offline steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2016, 03:01:50 PM »
This is getting interesting!!!!!

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Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2016, 03:04:28 PM »
Even more interesting than an interesting thing

Baldric
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Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2016, 03:15:44 PM »
I checked again and the label with the parts says;

Mercedes W165
Crankshaft and Conrod
(both were built into the W165 after the Tripolli Race)

Hello Simon,

There is one way we can easily check if the hardware would fit the W165. The Hirth crankshaft would most likely be a drop in replacement for the older one piece crankshaft, therefore the leading dimensions would be the same. The W165  has a bore and stroke of 64 x 58. So the distance between the main and big end centres should be 29mm. Also the overall diameter of the crankwebs should be 200mm and the distance between the con rod bearing centres should be 142mm.

If this all checks out, I would appreciate if you could make some more photos of the bits, square on and side on so that I can draw them up in 1/3 scale.

Cheers

Mike

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.