Author Topic: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale  (Read 151536 times)

Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2016, 03:28:14 PM »

Quote

OK I can measure the od of the crank webs and the conrod bearing centres but the distance between main and big end centres might be more of a challenge.

Simon.

If these items were to fit the W165 the main to big end centre distance would be 29.0mm However if they are from the W196 then the main to big end distance would be much bigger at 34.4mm. You should be able to eyeball a guess/ estimate between the two

Cheers

Mike

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Online steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #106 on: June 06, 2016, 03:33:37 PM »
...and your model is bigger....   8)

Dave
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Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #107 on: June 06, 2016, 03:44:10 PM »
She, says size is everything

Mike :embarassed:
« Last Edit: June 06, 2016, 03:48:58 PM by Vixen »
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Online steamer

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #108 on: June 06, 2016, 04:04:02 PM »
....not goin there......


"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #109 on: June 06, 2016, 04:48:56 PM »
Ok this is what I have measured:

Conrod
Big end bore: 68mm
Small end bore: 26mm
Centre distance: 145mm

Crank
Web dia: 144.9mm
Throw: ~39mm

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #110 on: June 06, 2016, 06:09:37 PM »
Hello Simon,

This one will not lay down easily. The mystery continues.

I have found the reference to the Mahle built up Hirth Crankshaft. It only says that MB were considering the alternative as a way to use standard one piece roller bearings in the big end to improve their current design of split caged rollers which had a very short life. There were no test results reported other than noting  Mahle built up crankshafts had been used by Auto Union for years with complete success.

I could maybe live with the con-rod dimensions, they are quite close to what I have measured off the copies of copies of old blueprints, which can obviously lead to errors.

Are you sure of the crank throw? 39mm x 2 = 78mm; which would be more appropriate for something like a 5 litre engine rather than a tiny 1.5 litre engine. The distance between the centres would need to be 29.0mm for the W165.

Are you sure you estimated the overall crank web diameter rather than measuring the distance across the web?

I confess to making an error myself, the overall diameter of the crank web should be more like 168mm than the 200mm I said before.

Is there anyone you can talk to regarding the provenance of those w165 parts?

Keep digging and we will get to the bottom of this one.

Cheers

Mike

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Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #111 on: June 06, 2016, 08:51:02 PM »
Mike,

I'll re-check the throw tomorrow but I'm pretty sure it's closer to 40mm than 30mm.  I will admit to when trying to measure the web diameter to just measuring across the widest part of the crank so I'll have another go at that tomorrow too.

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #112 on: June 06, 2016, 11:14:45 PM »
Hello Simon,

I have been able to do a bit of photo analysis on the two images you sent yesterday. By using your measurements and comparing them with the photos, I conclude the throw is 40mm ish (just as you measured) and the overall diameter of the whole crankshaft would be 165mm ish, which compares well with overall diameter of 168mm, I measured from the blueprint.

So the con rod and every thing else matches with what would be expected for the W165, everything that is except for the 40mm throw. Even that oil catcher grove around the main bearing matches W165 practice.

The reason I am at this like a terrier, is because the use of a built up (Hirth) crank and commercial one piece needle roller bearings may be the only logical way for me to build the model crankshaft. A one piece crankshaft would need hardened journals and hardened half shells for all the mains and big end bearings. I do not have the equipment to do that sort of precision grinding of the bearing faces. Even Mercedes were having trouble with this area. 

I would need to base my design on the hardware you have available (even if we cannot resolve the 40mm throw).

Is there any chance you could take some more photos, square on and side on? Perhaps the two sections will pull apart for the photos.

Thanks for your patience and help.

Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 07:32:13 AM by Vixen »
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #113 on: June 07, 2016, 07:44:45 AM »
May be worth laying a rule or tape next to the parts if you do take any more photos.

Better still pop the bits in your pocket and come down to Guildford in a couple of weeks ;)

Online sco

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #114 on: June 07, 2016, 07:48:13 AM »
Mike,

No need for bump - I'm on it today so you just need to be patient  ;)

Was going to take the pictures on a piece of A4 to give you a size reference as well as a ruler,

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline Steamer5

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #115 on: June 07, 2016, 09:02:13 AM »
Mike,
 Sounds like you need to jump in the car & visit Simon! Can be what no more than 3 or 4 hours...... :stickpoke:


Cheers Kerrin
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Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #116 on: June 07, 2016, 11:42:29 PM »
Hello Kerrin,

It's more like only 2 hours by car. However when you consider the work they are involved in, I would expect the security to be tighter than a ducks backside.... watertight. They would not want an undesirable model engine maker within a mile. Ha ha

Simon has already posted some excellent photographs which show the Hirth coupling extremely well. They should be enough for our purposes. A big thank you to Simon.

Cheers

Mike
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Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline 1dbweldor

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #117 on: June 12, 2016, 05:31:58 PM »
I have a friend that retired from R&d Mercedes some years ago and moved to the US. Would you mind if I had him look at these pictures and see what he thinks and knows of these engines? I know he spent his adult lifetime with MB and probably the most knowledgeable person I know on engines.

Offline Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #118 on: June 12, 2016, 06:36:25 PM »
Hello 1dbweldor,
Please go ahead and ask, we all would welcome the opinion from someone with the knowledge.
We are coming to the opinion that both the camshaft and crankshaft components are all from the post-war Mercedes W196.

Mike
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Offline michelko

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #119 on: February 06, 2017, 12:13:59 PM »
7     Transfer Manifold

I realise I am falling way behind with this build log, steady build progress is being made but I am way behind with the postings. I will attempt to catch up

The last major part of the two stage supercharger to be made is the horse shoe shaped transfer manifold which connects the larger low pressure compressor to the smaller high pressure stage. On the full size engine the transfer manifold was on integral parts of the two supercharger housing, which required very elaborate castings in magnesium alloy. I am machining my engine from solid billets of aluminium as there are no castings available. I am attempting to machine a very 3 dimensional object from 2 dimensional drawings on 3 axis milling machine. I needed to carefully consider how to machine what is basically a curved hollow tube and how to make it fit the existing supercharger casings.

To help me visualise the transfer manifold, a friend made a Solidworks 3D model from my drawings and quickly 3D printed something for me to play with.







This printed part was a great help in planning the machining steps. The transfer manifold consists a left and a right half, joined at the centre by a large pipe clamp. I decided to machine both sides joined together in order to maintain their correct alignment and to separate the left and right halves after all the machining was complete. I was able to design the hollow transfer manifold as two hollow shells to be bolted together with hidden screws. I would use the same grade of aluminium alloy for the manifold and for the fixing screws.




Here you can see the first stage of machining the internal contours of the rear half of the transfer manifold. You can see the small lands which are designed to accept the hidden screws which will hold the two halves together. The process is the same as before, start with a big block of aluminium and convert most of it into small chips and hopefully an engine part will emerge.




Part of the outside profile was also machined without disturbing the set-up. The wall thickness of the shell is about 1.5mm.




The rear half of the transfer manifold is offered up to the high and low pressure compressors. So far, so good



The front half of the trasfer manifold was machined in a similar manner to the first. The two halves were glued and bolted together using bolts made from the same material as the manifold. A lot of hand filing was then required to complete the outside shape of the assembled transfer manifold. The fixing screws blended in and were lost from view during this process. The low pressure (the far side) of the manifold was a sandwich of three parts while the high pressure side was made from two halves.



The supercharger cooling fins were carefully filed away from the two compressor housings where the transfer manifold would eventually fit.



The transfer manifold is made to fit snugly onto the two compressor housing before the mounting bolt holes are drilled.



M3 cap head bolts are partially buried in the mounting flanges.


The left and right halves have been separated at the centre point. The rubber band was used to hold the two halves in position while the mounting flanges were being worked on.
I was very relieved to have got this far without too many problems. The transfer manifold is a very prominent feature at the front of the engine and therefore needs to look right.  I would not have wanted to redo that part.
Time to relax and enjoy a nice cup of tea.

Mike this is an awesome build thumbs up.
Can you please tell me which glue you used? I thoght about this procedure on the bugatti waterpump.
Thanks michael

 

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