Elderberry Mill Engine/ Elmer's 43 by AOG

[AOG]

After more than a month on the road for work, it's time to start a new engine. After diving into my closet of kits I came up with the Elderberry Mill Engine kit from LMS.



As you can see it looks very similar to Elmer's number 43 engine. After looking at both sets of plans, I have decided to cherry pick elements and processes from each for my version.  Let's get started with the base. I started by squaring up the base,



Then I fly cut the surfaces flat.



Then the design was laid out.



Then I milled out the cutout.



And drilled the holes.



I don't have a counterbore so I used a 2 flute end mill (slot drill) instead.



Next up was the column. I started off by squaring up the piece and then using an end mill to mill the top and bottom flat.



Then I laid out the column.



I drilled



and reamed the holes



Then I drilled and tapped the mounting holes on the bottom.



Then I started shaping the column. I milled out the top of the column.



Then I flipped it over and cut it to depth.



Then I tilted the column and cut the angled sides.



The next piece was the bearing. It was a simple turning job. I turned the profile.



Drilled and reamed the center.



Then I parted it off and flipped it over and cleaned up the other side.



Next I drilled an oil hole in the bearing



That's all I have time for now. I will finish the rest this evening.

[b.lindsey]

That's a great start Anthony. I'll be along for the ride. Glad you have found the time to get back in the shop as well.

Bill

[AOG]

Thanks Bill. The next piece was the crankshaft. The elderberry design calls for a one piece crank while Elmer uses a 2 piece design. Going into this build I was one in four for the single piece cranks. I decided to try again figuring I could convert to to a 2 piece Elmer style crankshaft if I screwed it up. I faced the end of the supplied bar and then center drilled it.



Then turning between the chuck and the tailstock center, I thinned down the shaft.



With bated breath I parted off the piece. And no "tink" or bending.



Then I turned it over and cleaned up the back side.



Then it was over to the mill to drill and tap the hole for the crank pin.



The last thing I did is to mill a flat onto the shaft. Looking at the pic I had the part out way to far and I could have bent it during this operation. I won't do that agin.



The next piece I worked on was the eccentric strap. This is the most advanced thing I have done on my rotary table so far. I started by laying out the part



Then I took a piece of sacrificial scrap and drilled and tapped it for 10-32 hold downs.



Then using my laser I picked up the center of the large hole. That would be the datum for this piece.



The hole was then drilled.



And then bored to size.



The other 2 holes were then drilled.



Then I turned 2 bushings. One for the large hole and one for the center.



Then the eccentric strap was mounted to the scrap.



Then I mounted the scrap onto my rotary table tooling plate. I realized that the tooling plate had a 10-32 hole in the center so I replaced the screw in the large bushing with a stud and nut. That made aligning everything easy.



Then I milled out the shape followed by some cleanup on the die filer.



The last piece for this weekend was the flywheel. I decided to go with an Elmer style flywheel. I started by facing both sides of the blank and then marking out where the rebate would go.



Then using my  round profiling tool I cut the rebates.



Then the center was drilled and reamed.



Then it was over to the mill to drill and tap for the set screw.



Then the flywheel was mounted on a mandril and placed in the collet chuck. The outer edge was trued up and turned to final diameter.



I'll end this weekend's post with a family shot



Tony

[mike mott]

I will follow along as well.

Mike

[Roger B]

That's a good start with just a weekends work     

I saw that you were using a replaceable tip tool in your fly cutter. Do you get problems with chipping the tips due to the interrupted cut?

[AOG]

That's a good start with just a weekends work     

I saw that you were using a replaceable tip tool in your fly cutter. Do you get problems with chipping the tips due to the interrupted cut?

I wish I could be that productive normally but this was a " I just got back from a long trip weekend" so it had a few extra days in it. The jury's out on the fly cutter. It never worked well for me on my old mini mill. Since the new mill has a power feed I thought I would try it again. I didn't have any problems with the tool chipping this time but I was cutting Aluminum. I also didn't get a surface finish that I was totally happy with. I will continue to test it with different DOCs and feed rates to see if I can dial it in.

Tony

[AOG]

This weekend was very frustrating. It started well enough. I decided to start with making the eccentric. I turned one end of the bar to get a good slip fit on the eccentric strap.



Then I parted off the piece and faced it to dimension.



Then the four jaw was offset for the throw and the piece turned down.



Then the hole for the shaft was drilled and reamed.



Then it was over to the mill where the hole for the set screw was drilled and tapped.



With the eccentric completed I decided to start the reversing lever. The build guide says to mount the part in the four jaw and turn the boss. Their recommended setup made me uneasy because I didn't have anything to properly support one end of the piece. I should have paid attention to my instincts. When I turned the part the interrupted cut caused the part to shift and I ended up with this.



I figured that it was no big deal and that I would clean it up in the mill. Then I forgot to add in the radius of my tool and ended up milling off part of my boss. Needless to say that piece was scrap.



Ok on to try number 2.  I used an end mill to clean up both faces of my second blank.



Then I drilled and reamed the hole in the center of the boss.



Then I mounted the blank onto the sacrificial plate on my rotary table and cut the boss.



Then I took the rest of the blank to size and realigned the table to the center of the boss using my coaxial indicator.



Using that as a reference point. I coordinate drilled the ends of the slot and the corners where the handle would be cut.



Then the slot was milled out.



I was cutting the handle free when disaster struck again. I ended up over rotating the rotary table and cutting off the handle.



That was it for me. I called it a day (as I was inventing new swear words). I'll take a work break and be back at it next weekend. I refuse to allow this part to best me.

Tony

[b.lindsey]

Some days are like that Tony...we all have screw ups. Just makes the redo that much better when it turns out right. Hang in there!!

Bill

[zeeprogrammer]

Of the few engines I've managed so far...this was one of my favorites. Keep at it. It's worth it. It's a neat little engine.
If you're redoing a part only once...you're far far ahead of me.

[Tennessee Whiskey]

I always buy enough stock to have three goes at a perfect part,  so far I haven't  gained a lot of excess material 

Eric

[90LX_Notch]

That stinks Tony.  What always irks me is that the fatal error always seems to happen when one is 95% or more finished with the part.

-Bob

[mike mott]

Tony, there are monetary expenses for plans and materials and then you have to pay your dues to the fabrication gods.....they can be persistent. The next one will be a breeze.

Mike

[philjoe5]

No worries Tony, we've all been there.  You'll get it done, then you'll have that sense of accomplishment

Cheers,
Phil

[Roger B]

The term is test or trial pieces  I think I can safely say we have all made some/lots of them 

[AOG]

Thanks guys. I figured out what happened. I transposed 2 dimensions that were drawn close together and as a result insured that I made a "trial" piece  (nice term Roger). I'm going back to Elmer's original drawings for the next attempt. Hopefully that will make things easier.

Tony

[vascon2196]

I have a cemetery of scrap parts in the woods behind my shop.

I throw them as far as I can.

It happens.

[AOG]

Lots of work this weekend but not a lot of pictures. On the plus side I finished the reversing lever that was giving me fits last weekend. On the negative side  it took me four attempts to get one that I was happy with. Let's pick up where we left off. Here we are on attempt number three with the proper sized holes drilled in it



Next the slot was milled. If you look closely you can see that I have already screwed this piece up. I didn't properly support the piece with a clamp. I was relying on the bolt through the boss to hold the part during milling. The piece ended up rotating and throwing the geometry off.



 Ok lesson learned. Now let's jump to part number four. Here I am cutting out the top of the lever. (With clamps installed this time)



Next I milled out the the lower section.



Then it was over to the die filer to clean up the edges and round over the lever. The last thing I did on the piece was drill the starter hole for the pin.



Here are my attempts in sequence. From left to right they are. Failure to properly support the piece in the lathe. Next was mistaking a diameter for a radius. Followed by clamp your parts properly or else and lastly the final piece.  Hopefully someone will learn from my mistakes.



The next piece was the tilting guide. I started by turning down the narrow section.



Then it was over to the mill and into my square collet block for squaring up.



The edges were taken to final dimensions.



Then the collet block was turned vertical and the slot milled out.



That's it for this week.

Tony

[b.lindsey]

Looks like you are back on track Tony. Probably glad to get that lever arm behind you too, but the final  result looks nice!!

Bill

[AOG]

Thanks Bill

Tony

[zeeprogrammer]

On the negative side  it took me four attempts to get one that I was happy with.

Only four? Doing well. Every attempt is a learning and therefore a win.
I did this engine. And wish I'd made a few more attempts to make it better.

Good progress from my point of view.

[AOG]

Not a lot of progress this week. I spent most of my time doing house projects and some tooling that I will make a separate post for. I started by making the sliding piece for the  eccentric. First the piece was squared off and milled slightly oversize.



Then the piece was filed until it was a good sliding fit into the guide



Then it was drilled and tapped



Next I made a "practice" cylinder.  I started by squaring up the stock and milling to size.



Then the bore was drilled and reamed



Then I drilled the holes for the end covers



Next I came in from the side to drill the exhaust.



Afterwards I came in from the top to meet the previous hole. This is also where I ruined the piece when I went to deep and cut unto the bore. I didn't find that out until later so we will continue.



Next I cut the pockets.



And I drilled the holes to mount the valve chest.



Then I drilled the angled holes from the pockets to the ends



It was at this point that I pulled the piece out of the vice to inspect and noticed that I had drilled into the cylinder. Naturally I am out of the appropriate bar stock to make another attempt so I will have to order some more before I can continue.

Tony
 

[b.lindsey]

Bummer about breaking through Tony, but another lesson learned. It happens to us all. All you can do it get more stock and try again.

Bill

[Jo]

It happens to us all. All you can do it get more stock and try again.

Or you could make a 'press' in liner out of something like stainless or cast Iron. As there does not seem to be much metal spare around the bore you could aim to reduce the bore by say 1/8"  changing the piston size to suit  .

This is a trick that I have had to use on a number of my vintage casting sets when a hole (occlusion) in the cylinder casting is found in the bore line 

Jo

P.S. If you only intend on running the engine on air Loctite will secure the liner.

[AOG]

Jo if it was a casting set set I would probably attempt to sleeve it. Since it is a barstock engine (that's right on the edge of my skill level) I will remake the part. My goal is to progress through these increasingly more challenging  barstock engines until I gain enough skill and experience to feel comfortable building the casting kits that are aging in my closet.

Tony

[AOG]

I'm sorry to say that this build log is suspended indefinitely. While I was away for work someone decided they needed my possessions more than I did. All of my electronics and camera gear was taken as well as some of my tools.  I am having to post this using my iPhone. I may pick this up sometime in the future once I get everything cleaned up and my missing equipment replaced.

Tony

[Don1966]

Sorry to hear that some no goods have done that to you Tony. I would put some cameras around once you replace you tools. There are apps for them so you can keep a eye on things and record while away. Cameras are very cheap. Good luck in recovering them and did you have serial numbers for the cameras written down some where? I would let the police know so they can keep a eye out for them.

Regards Don

[b.lindsey]

Tony, so sorry to hear of your loss of property. The world is a crazy place these days, I just hope they catch the SOB's

Bill

[AOG]

It's been a crazy month. There are nine people in jail and I got back about three quarters of my stuff back. Thanks to an insurance check I have new camera gear and a new iPad. That means that this thread is open for business. While I have been unable to post I have still been working on the engine. My last update left off with me screwing up the cylinder. That was the first thing I redid.  Next I made the cylinder cover.  I turned a register on some square stock parted it off and drilled the four mounting holes. There are no pics because I didn't have my new camera yet. The next piece was the cross head. I chucked up some for of the square bar and faced it and turned the cross head section to size



Then I drilled and reamed the bore.



Then the piece was parted off from the stock



Then it was flipped around and the register was cut.



Then over to the mill where the cylinder cover was trimmed to size.



Next the mounting holes were drilled



The piece was turned and one side was milled away.



Then it was flipped again and the other side milled to dimension.



That completes the crosshead. The next piece is the valve chest. I started by squaring up the block.



Then over to the four jaw to turn the end.



Then I used my ball turner to round the end over.



Then the piece was flipped and the other boss was turned and the center hole drilled and reamed



Then it was over to the mill for final sizing.



Next the mounting holes were drilled and the pocket plunge milled.



That completes the valve chest. The valve cover and valve plate were made at the same time from the same bar. After cutting the bar in half the the pieces were squared up and sized.



Then the pieces were placed under the valve chest and transfer punched.



The punch marks were picked up by my laser.



And the mounting holes drilled



On the valve plate the corners for the slots were drilled.



Then the slots were milled out.



That completes the valve cover and valve plate. I'll end this post with a family shot.



Tony

[Admiral_dk]

Nice to hear that they caught the villains and that you got most of your stuff back 

Good to see you back on the project too - nice parts by the way 

[AOG]

Thanks

Tony

[Don1966]

That's some nice work on the parts Tony. Glad to see the thieves get caught.

Don

[b.lindsey]

That is good news Tony. I hope you may get the rest of your stuff back too. Good to see you back on the project and the new camera is doing a fine job too.

Bill

[AOG]

I got some good work done this week. The first piece was the valve rod. I started by profiling the piece.



Then I cut the flats



Then the dread "tink" sound.



It turns out that I cut the shoulder too square. My second attempt was undersized. On my third attempt I was able to drill and ream the hole.



The piece was parted off and I started the eccentric rod. Again I started by profiling the piece. I ended up snapping my first attempt as a result of an aggressive DOC and a lack of support. On my second attempt I center drilled the part for a dead center and recut the profile.



Then it was over to the mill where the flats were cut.



Then the holes where drilled and reamed.



The piece was parted off and tapped.



The next part was the valve. I started by squaring up the piece



Then the slots were cut



Then the piece was flipped and the pocket cut



The last piece for the week was the piston rod. I started by profiling the rod.



Then the crosshead was cut to be a slip fit in the guide and parted off.



Then the flats were cut



The cross pin hole was drilled.



Finally the collet block was flipped vertical and the slot milled out.



That's it for this update

Tony

 

[tvoght]

Nice work. Persistence pays off.

--Tim

[b.lindsey]

More nice progress Tony, despite that dreaded "tink" sound. But at least you have a few more fiddly parts finished now.

Bill

[Tennessee Whiskey]

It turned out nicely Tony  . Sometimes a certain number of "practice  parts " are just part of the process. I've started not even worrying about it until numbers 4 or 5 .

Cletus

[arnoldb]

Good going Tony - persistence pays 

Not many parts left to make from what I can see.

Kind regards, Arnold

[Don1966]

Nice progress Tony and I had one part I remade five times on my last engine. The thing was trying to intimidate me.

Don

[AOG]

Thanks everyone. I'm getting close. I need to do the piston, the con rod and some fittings and the machining is done.

Tony

[AOG]

This post will wrap up the machining for this engine.  I started with the piston. A piece of brass was faced and drilled for the piston rod



Then over to the bench where the hole was tapped



The elderberry instructions recommend making a collet to make it easier to hold the piston rod for truing up the piston. I faced and drilled the collet.



Then over to the mill for slitting.



Back in the lathe the piston was screwed  on and trued up.



Then I used some timesaver on the piston and lapped it to the cylinder. The next piece was the connecting rod. I turned the piece to large dimension and then turned the small end to size



Then the taper was filed to size on the lathe. (Sorry for the poor lighting in this shot)



Then over to the mill where the ends were squared off and the holes drilled and reamed.



Then the piece was parted off and the piston rod side rounded over on the die filer.



With that part completed all I had left were three pins. The original plans call for a slot head but I decided to make mine from hex stock. All three pins were made the same way so I only photographed one.  I started by turning the threaded area.



Then I undercut the back end of the thread with a grooving tool.



Then the thread was die cut using a tail stock die holder.



The rest of the pin was turned to size and then parted off.



After completing the pins the machining was complete. I took some time and made a base for the engine. I will leave this part of the build with a final family shot.



The next steps are to fit, polish and blue the parts and put them together. Till next time.

Tony

[b.lindsey]

Its so satisfying when you see all the parts laid out and just waiting to be finished , assembled and then come to life!!  Nicely done Tony.

Bill

[Don1966]

What Bill Said. Nice work Tony.

Don

[AOG]

I have now spent 4 weekends working on this engine trying to get it to run. Unfortunately I've had no luck. I've remade the eccentric, the valve and all of the linkages with no luck. At this point I have lost interest in it and I am officially declaring it a shelf queen. Here are the final pictures.





Tony

[b.lindsey]

That is a shame Tony, and frustrating too!  Set it aside for a while and come back to it with fresh eyes.  It could even be something relatively  small that you have overlooked.

Bill

[mklotz]

I built this engine early in my career.  It's a great and reliable runner and, if fitted with a see-through steam chest cover, a great teaching tool to use to explain double-acting, reversible engines to kids and non-mechanical adults.

I'll assume that you've checked for friction-free turnover and serious air leaks.  If that's the case, everything points to a valve-timing problem.  Spend some time with the steam chest cover off observing valve position relative to piston position.  Make adjustments in small increments and keep testing.  It will run and when it does you'll be fascinated.  I know I was since this was my first reversible engine.  As a kid I had wondered how they did it.

There is, I suppose, a remote chance that one of the holes that transmit steam from the valve chest to the cylinder is blocked by a bit of swarf or what.  Run a toothpick or whatever through and check visually for a clear path.

Keep at it.  Persistence is one of the most important skills to acquire in our hobby but, unfortunately, one of the most difficult to learn.  You'll get there and, when you do, you'll think it was worth it.

[AOG]

Thanks Marv but I'm pretty sure I know what the issue is. When I first oil it up it will run for a little while and then stop and blow air. The thing leaks like a sieve and that's after redoing multiple parts and putting in gaskets. At this point I can't pull off the accuracy required to make this engine. I pretty much have to rebuild the majority of the parts. I some point I may make another one but I'm cutting my losses with this one.

Tony

[AOG]

It's been a month and I have finished my Elmer's standby (I'll post on that later this weekend). It's now time to get this puppy running. When we left off, the thing was leaking like sieve and blowing air out of the exhaust constantly. I just couldn't get it to run. The first thing to address is the constant exhaust. I always expect to have a little bit but nothing like i was seeing. As far as I was concerned I had valve problems and or a poorly sized piston. While I was working on my other project I ordered a set of small hole gauges. I pulled the engine apart and measured the bore and the piston. I found 2 things. The bore was tapered and the piston was .008 undersized from the narrow side. I also pulled the valve chest apart and discovered something interesting. It seams that the Elderberry guys changed the valve dimensions from what Elmer had used. I missed it the first time around and I made the valve to one set of dimensions and the valve plate to the other. So the task this weekend is to fix the cylinder and make a new piston to fit. Then I will make a new Elmer's dimensioned valve plate to go with the Elmer's valve I made earlier. Then I'll put it all back together and see if it runs.

Tony

[b.lindsey]

Sounds like you are on the right track Tony. Glad you didn't give up on it. The small hole gages will come in handy for many things, nice addition to your tooling.

Bill

[AOG]

Thanks Bill. I'm one of those people with a relatively low frustration limit. When I hit that limit I loose interest and I have to walk away for awhile. This hobby has seen me bounce off of that wall many times. I always need a break but I always come back to it later. I'm too stubborn to let it beat me permanently.

Tony

[b.lindsey]

You aren't by yourself in that regard Tony. Looking forward to seeing the Standby too.

Bill

[Don1966]

Hi Todd glad to see you haven't given up. Sometimes we just have to chill a bit, been there myself.

Don

[vascon2196]

I almost took a sledgehammer to my Ford Engine. I'm pretty sure I chucked the piston into the woods like an Olympian. It took a lot of folks to talk me out of smashing the engine to pieces. Like you I walked away and came back (weeks later) and got the engine running. I had some dumb wire in the wrong place or something stupid like that. It is nice to hear I'm not the only one with a short fuse who chose this hobby!

[AOG]

It's alive and running 

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5480.0.html

Tony

[tpwilcox]

Congrats! I just made the same engine. Fiddly little bast***. Glad you got it running.

Cheers,

Tom

p.s. What was the problem?

[pinkusrl]

Where can I get the plans on line please.  Thanks. Bob

[AOG]

You can get Elmer's plans here:

http://www.john-tom.com/html/ElmersEngines.html

Tony