Rosie

[zeeprogrammer]

As in 'The Riveter'.

(I really shouldn't give such names to topics. It might make people look and then discover the banality of the content.)

Many of you may recall 'Spinster'...a spinning wheel model (finger treadle engine to you!) that I made for my oldest daughter who's hobby is spinning.

I have another daughter who has expressed a desire (jealousy?) that I make something for her.

A difficult thing since her hobbies at first glance don't lend themselves to an 'engine'. She collects movies and movie trivia. (Odd how certain threads run in a family. My brother was a big collector of movie pamphlets back in Germany and eventually became a well known teacher of cinema.)

Any way...I've come up with an idea...an idea that, while it appears to have little chance of success I intend to pursue. I made the mistake of telling my daughter the idea and she now has an expectation. I generally have no problem with failed projects...witness my several dead threads...but now we're talking a daughter. Double whammy. Female and mine. Had it been a son it'd be a different story. Know what I mean?

The project requires rivets. Very small rivets. The diameter being on the order of 1/32".

I've seen rivets available that are on that order of size but they are brass. Seems kind of hard...

What makes it worse is the project calls for riveting small hinges where the...I don't know what to call them...the part the rivet goes through...is also on the order of 1/32. Think of a door hinge where the fingers are 1/32 and there's only two of them not counting the middle finger  .

I thought copper would be a better choice but can't seem to find it.
Maybe solid electrical wire?

So what do you all know about rivets?

Oh...the project. I suppose you want to know that.

It's a model of an old-timey movie camera. No inner workings. Just a model of a two-reel camera sitting on top of a tripod.
Not suitable for this forum...but that won't stop me.  I visit no other forums so you have to live with me.

I have a CAD model of it but it's not quite finished yet.

Thanks. Or as they say in certain parts of the world...Ta.

[b.lindsey]

That's some mighty small rivets Zee!! Can't help with those but it sounds like a very interesting project. And of course what you do for one daughter, you have to do for the other

Bill

[stevehuckss396]

http://www.microfasteners.com/home.php?cat=665
http://www.scalehardware.com/miniature-rivets-c-10


Here are 2 sources that I found searching for myself a while ago.

[Don1966]

Sounds like a great project to do since it' for the daughter. I am interested to see what it is your making Carl. I am sure you will succeed with it since it's one of your own. Show us your cad model?

 
Don

[Bearcar1]

Sounds like a pretty cool project Zeep, I am all in and along for the ride. 


BC1
Jim

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks all.

Steve...your second link is one I was looking at. I'm thinking I'm just going to have to try some experiments and see what works.

Yes Bill...pretty small rivets. Probably too small. But it would be so neat if I can make it work.

Attached is a shot of the CAD model...not complete but nearly so...

The problem now? You're all too far away to give me a kick in a pants to get started. 

By the way...inside the lens hood is an LED. The idea is for the crank (not shown), when turned, to turn it on and off. Powered by a little battery inside the body of the camera. The crank / battery system is the part I haven't figured out yet. Not counting the fact I haven't figured out the 'how' on several parts.

The body is about .5" wide, 1" tall, and 1.5" long. The tripod is on the order of 3.5".

Whether I do it now or not...it has to be done before I die. My biggest hate is disappointing my women. I'd say any woman but there is one or two that done me wrong.  Although they'd tell a different story. Liars.

Would the crank qualify it as an engine?

[Bearcar1]

Zee, this just occurred to me….. check out escutcheon pins at a good hardware store. They have a small rounded head and come in smallish sizes. They have the appearance of a round headed rivet but are in fact small nails. Just a thought. I'm going back to sleep now. 


BC1
Jim

[Don1966]

The problem now? You're all too far away to give me a kick in a pants to get started. 

Would the crank qualify it as an engine?

Who cares if it's not an engine and here's the kick in the pants. Come on man get on with it. That' same cool project Zee. I like.....................
Waiting on you bud I got the popcorn and beer!

  

Don

[Jo]

When I read Rosie my mind immediately went to Rosie with cyder and one of my favourite tipples  I thought you were making a cyder press 

Rivets: 0.8mm rivets may be small for us but they are monsters for those whose hobby is making electric mice  One of the best books in the UK for learning the techniques they use was written by Roche (see photo). These modellers often imitate rivets by making a jig with a pin and socket and press them into the work. The second photo shows a press tool for these little "rivets".

As we head up to bigger rivets like yours often the builders cheat: drill the hole and then just soft solder the rivets into position. But the brass rivets in this size are not a problem to work with and will rivet nicely if you use the right tools. Rivet snaps are easy enough to make but remember to make them of as wide a diameter as you can get away with, to prevent marking the top surface. Some of the tricks are to use a gauge to help cut the rivets to the right length (say the hole in a hacksaw blade) and to use an automatic centre punch with its point replaced with a suitable snap head if you need to peen the second head so domes are visible on both sides.

Jo

[ths]

Rivets: 0.8mm rivets may be small for us but they are monsters for those whose hobby is making electric mice 

Jo

And there I was thinking that the rivets were for the trap,

Looks a great project Zee, I was thinking that a dynamo from a wind-up torch might do the trick, but I don't know how much space they might occupy. Perhaps some aaa batteries might do the trick, but that would render the handle useless.

Cheers, Hugh.

[Stuart]

Zee

That size of rivet is easy to use

Jo they are not just used for the electric mice but I used 1000 of them in my true scale 5 inch gauge 14xx loco the tanks and bunker were all riveted up with fish plates note these were all put in proper no cheating

I do not have the loco now so no pics

Zee you will have to make up a set of snaps to finish

Have fun

Stuart

[Stilldrillin]

Zee.

As Stuart says, "have fun". 

I know I'm going to, on the sidelines........   

Good luck! 

David D

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks all. You've given me some confidence.

BC1...interesting thought on the escutcheon pins. Seems workable for some of the rivets but for others I couldn't find any small enough. Seems the smallest is 18 gauge and I think I need something closer to 22.

Don...don't wait on me. The popcorn will go stale and the beer will...ah what am I saying? You know better than to wait and let beer go bad. 

Jo...thanks for the references. It looks like I'll be using brass. Do you heat them first?

Hugh...I'm thinking watch battery and the crank would have a cam on it to make momentary contact as it turns and blink the LED. Or leave the crank in a particular position to leave the LED on. If that doesn't work I'm considering scaling the model up in size.

Stuart...yours is the second post to mention 'snaps'. I didn't (and still don't really) know what they are. A little searching found another source of small brass rivets but the snaps are still a question. I see the usual snaps (like used in sewing) but nothing small enough. And then there's what appears to be a tool that's called a rivet snap. Not sure how that's used.

Thanks David.

I'm in the process of drawing up some tools I'll need for the project. I figure on doing some experimenting to see if I can do this and to gain experience if I can. The parts are small so I need some holders too.

[Stuart]

Zee

A snap or more correctly snaps are used as a pair to form the head of the rivet , they are a bar with a depression in the end the same shape as a snap head rivet

Here are some pics but as you are over the pond you will need to source mor local or you could make them with a small ball mill but that would cost the same as a snap

http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Rivet_Snaps.html


To use them you hold one in a vice rite head on the snap place the work over the rivet and use the other held in hand strike with a small hammer to form the head


This may help

http://www.technologystudent.com/joints/rivet4.htm

Stuart

[ShopShoe]

Zee,

In the days of real film editing, the desktop editing units used a rotating prism instead of an intermittant movement to pass light through each frame as it went through the film gate. The "dark" areas between the facets of the prism prevented you from seeing the film advance between frames.

Perhaps you could rotate a small, perhaps square, prism in front of an LED to make it flicker. Your hand crank could them turn the prism. Cranking speed would then change flicker speed and duration.

Thought Two: If you used contacts to open and close a circuit to flicker a light, then adding a small transducer (very small speaker) might produce a "click" to go along with the light.

Gee, this is fun thinking up things like this.

Regards,

--ShopShoe

[ShopShoe]

Sorry for not apologizing for OT, but as I said, this started the creative side of my brain.

--ShopShoe

[mklotz]

Check the suppliers of doll-house scale (usually 1:12) bits, e.g.,

http://www.micromark.com/Solid-Brass-Miniature-Flush-Hinges-Pkg-of-6,6694.html

The hinges are supplied with mounting nails that, with suitable mechanical and psychological adjustment, could become rivets.

[AOG]

Zee if you want to flash the led how about leaving it on and moving a shutter with the crank. It would probably be simpler.

Tony

[mklotz]

If your enthusiasm or available time fails, there's always this...

http://www.dollhouseminiatures.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=8352

or sans tripod...

http://www.dollhouseminiatures.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=60_94&products_id=11270

Neat one here too; scroll down...

http://cookiesbitsandpieces.com/decorative_itemsbronze_marblepewterporcelainsilverturquoise

[Roger B]

When I read Rosie my mind immediately went to Rosie with cyder and one of my favourite tipples  I thought you were making a cyder press 
Jo

I once acted in Cider with Rosie at the Nuffield Theatre in Southampton  The director was a 'method actor' so we went to Slad and actually found Laurie Lee in the local pub. He agreed to come and have some pictures taken with us, especially the rather attractive Rosie 

[zeeprogrammer]

Thanks Stuart. I was thinking of making a tool to do the rounding. I've looked at some ball end mills...a bit pricey so I'm wondering if there's another way to do it. I'll look at those snap tools more closely.

ShopShoe...no need to apologize for OT. That's how I got here in the first place. The model will eventually be put in a glass box to protect from dust etc. So I'm even thinking of a miniature director's chair to add some interest. Being in a box the light will be pretty useless. I suspect it would only be played with for a short time anyway and then placed in some out of the way place (an attic comes to mind). 

Thanks Marv. Interesting stuff. Lots of useful stuff can be found in other hobbies.

Thanks Tony. The only problem with that is the battery will die pretty quickly. The shutter (such as one considers it) would instead make/break the circuit.

So back to an earlier question...

If I get brass rivets (or even the dollhouse stuff)...would it be best to heat them to soften them before wailing away at them?

[Jo]

Thanks Stuart. I was thinking of making a tool to do the rounding. I've looked at some ball end mills...a bit pricey so I'm wondering if there's another way to do it. I'll look at those snap tools more closely.

There is: If you recall my Universal Pillar tool is also used for staking and Riveting. On there I used silver steel, drilled (only the point of the drill) to the depth of the dome, then you can get it red hot or try while it is cold, put the correct sized hard steel bearing in it and bash it with a hammer to form the dimple. Get it red hot and quench, this leaves it hard but brittle to make it usable you need to then heat to straw coloured and leave to cool. And you have one snap ready to go

I would use the brass rivets as they come. They are small enough even work hardening will not be a problem. You will find it easier if you use an appropriately sized/weighted hammer

Jo

[zeeprogrammer]

I would use the brass rivets as they come. They are small enough even work hardening will not be a problem. You will find it easier if you use an appropriately sized/weighted hammer

Thanks Jo!

[Stuart]

As a follow up to Jo,s hammer

I used a 2 ounce hammer , it's one I use a lot for centre popping when marking out and for tapping in 1 mm roll pins

Stuart

[arnoldb]

For a more "rustic" look if you can't find suitable rivets, you can always make your own from thick copper wire, as I did when building Fred...

Kind regards, Arnold

[zeeprogrammer]

Before I post what I came here for...thanks Stuart and Arnold.
Yeah...I was thinking about copper wire too.
But now...the next post.

[zeeprogrammer]

Well I think I finally got rid of the last wild hair that was keeping me away from shop time.
There were at least 3 wild hairs...none successful...which is okay. Failure means you tried. And it was fun none-the-less.

And...now that the bathroom renovation is done...I think I can get my shop back in order.

So maybe...just maybe...I can do some machining as the new year approaches.

And with that thought may I wish you all a very enjoyable holiday and a fantastic new year.

I really appreciate the culture this forum exhibits. Great people. Nice. Helpful. Diverse. Fun. Entertaining. Educational.

You all deserve a tu-tu.

Except Jo.

Curry and wine is called for. 

Or a casting.

[Jo]

Welcome back Zee 

Except Jo.

Curry and wine is called for. 

Or a casting.

Curry is nice  Indian beer goes better with curry than wine 

I am trying to pace myself on castings and other desirables this coming year: I am trying to decide if my new year's resolution should be to restrict myself to machine tools only

Jo

[tel]

For the LED a cam on the crank shaft pressing a spring loaded button battery down onto a contact - too easy.

[zeeprogrammer]

Curry is nice  Indian beer goes better with curry than wine 

Quite right. Although a Riesling works.

I am trying to decide if my new year's resolution should be to restrict myself to machine tools only

Selfish. 

[mike mott]

Copper rivets are pretty easy to make from electrical wire, the rivet sets are made from drill rod.



they were for the chassis of a small inspection loco.



Mike

[Roger B]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but can you post some more picture of that inspection car please?

[mike mott]

hi Roger I will open a new thread.

Mike