Author Topic: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.  (Read 8917 times)

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« on: June 19, 2014, 11:26:04 PM »
I have this old single 10cc IC engine that I traded for a Taipan 2.5CC Diesel about 30 yrs ago at least. It has been sitting in my tool chest with a bunch of other engines for that long. I figure now that I am semi retired, that I could mess with it and see if I can make it into something.
I am also drawing up the parts that I am remaking or modifying, and I will try and post them too.
I have the engine posted elsewhere under engines, but to keep this thread on subject I will post them again.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 11:49:25 PM »
First mod is going to be milling the remains of the mounting lugs off the crank case, and making up new mounting angle plates that go to below the crank case. They will be bolted to the sides.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Art K

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1054
  • Madison, Wisconsin USA
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 12:56:07 AM »
Pat,
Can you tell us more about this thing? Was this some sort of old control line airplane engine? What is the bore and stroke? It does appear to be cast aluminum and the cylinder with a cast iron liner. This sounds like a fun project. I'll be following along. I am editing this now after reading your other post ( should have read them in reverse order) to find you are trying to find that out yourself.
Art
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 01:09:18 AM by Art K »
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2014, 04:59:56 PM »
Well I started on it yesterday.
I set the crank case in the indexing head , and milled the remains of the broken lug off, rotated it 180d and milled the other side likewise.
I thought that I might clean up the top cyl. mount face as well so I did that and noticed that the cyl. mounting bore was off center by about .040".
I set the boring head up, and rebored it to a larger dia. but now on center.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2014, 05:39:23 AM »
Cut 2 pieces of .125" Alum angle x 1.5" long, drill and tap a few holes and it now has new feet.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2014, 05:40:33 AM »
New lathe now promised for July 2nd.  :Mad:
Cant do too much more without it.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12198
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2014, 07:46:47 AM »
That's will be nearly two months without a lathe  :o

Keeping my fingers crossed for you that there are no more delays  :)

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Ian S C

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1025
  • Stirling Engine Maker Darfield Canterbury N Z
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2014, 12:04:52 PM »
I wouldn't worry too much about the cylinder mount being off centre, some engines are designed that way, seem to remember the term is desaxed, it occurred in some motorbike engines.   
      Had a bit of a look on Google, desaxed engine, came up with quite a few sites on there, one bloke thought it sounded a bit like what he had done to his cat a week ago.  Over all, interesting. :happyreader:       Ian S C
« Last Edit: June 22, 2014, 01:04:23 PM by Ian S C »

Online sco

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1567
  • Location: Northants UK
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2014, 12:51:35 PM »
Desaxe is quite common in car engines - Honda use it as do Volkswagen in their VR engines.

Simon.
Ars longa, vita brevis.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2014, 03:18:57 PM »
That's will be nearly two months without a lathe  :o

Keeping my fingers crossed for you that there are no more delays  :)

Jo
Yes Jo, it is way too long.
Quote
Desaxe is quite common in car engines - Honda use it as do Volkswagen in their VR engines.

Simon.
Well Simon I have de desaxed mine now :Lol:
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Stuart

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Tilchestune UK
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2014, 05:21:46 PM »
when I got my last lathe the wait was 14 months  :Mad: :Mad:

looking forward to the reengineering project

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12198
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2014, 05:56:09 PM »
That wasn't a Myford was it  :stir:

I gave in trying to buy a connoisseur from them as after 9 months of chasing they still could not tell me how much they wanted to charge me, let alone a delivery date :ShakeHead: When you have talked yourself into spending 10K the least these manufacturers/dealers can do is help you spend your money.

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline Stuart

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Tilchestune UK
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2014, 07:19:57 PM »
Now Jo what ever made you think a thing like  that  :stickpoke:

It is regret that I must reply in the affirmative manner

The only good thing is they gave me twice what I paid them for the trade in and honoured the deal, that's what you get for supporting your local business , a long wait

I thought I was done with those after I had done my apprenticeship many many years ago , along with left handed spanners

PS I have found a good source for shop rags old underpants (washed of course ) but  that may not be a useful tip for you  :ShakeHead:

Hope the hair dryer race was a good one

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2014, 05:38:42 AM »
The thing that irks me the most is that when I went in and bought and paid a substantial deposit, for the 2 machines, they were on the floor. I asked that they hold them because I was moving. A week or so later they phoned and said" bad news, we just sold your lathe" but there is another due in a few weeks! That was a month ago. :Mad:
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2014, 05:42:25 AM »
Stuart, I intend to use the crank, cam, piston and rod from the existing. As can be seen the head needs to be replaced, as does the cylinder outer aluminum. I was thinking of a cast iron cylinder and head, all from barstock. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Stuart

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1728
  • Tilchestune UK
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2014, 07:21:46 AM »
I do not qualified to make a judgement, but my only resavation based on my other build and reading
Is the CI liner in a Ali fined outer is the thermal expansion would not the Ali move away and leave the cylinder uncooled ?
The CI head would be ok

Note I have yet to build a IC engine but have built many live steam locomotive ,many other modles over many many years, but alas the locomotive have been sold :'( due to mobile problem I am on crutches and have work the lathe and mill sitting down , but I get round the problem so no worries

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12198
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2014, 07:47:13 AM »
CI liners in Aluminium cylinders work just fine  :ThumbsUp: The liners normally have a shoulder on the head end to keep it in place.

My Anzanis  ;D both will have steel cylinder heads and cylinders, my Kiwi will have the Cast Aluminium head and all steel cylinder. 

Jo
Usus est optimum magister

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2014, 04:38:56 PM »
The old/present assembly is a steel liner in Alum. I was thinking maybe machining off the Alum and reusing the liner. All just to reuse as much of the old as possible. I was intending using the old valves and rockers also.
Alum is definitely easier to work with, so the "fins" may be a no brainer.
For the head assembly, is brass or bronze better for the valve cages?
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6314
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2014, 05:44:44 PM »
Whats the piston and does it have any rings? If no rings then I would probably go for a steel liner in alloy cylinder and a iron piston. If you are running rings then steel or iron liner will work with alloy piston and CI rings.

If you do the head from iron you don't really need cages the valves can seat on the iron. If its an alloy head then bronze cages.

J

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2014, 08:33:32 PM »
Thanks for the head and valve info Jason. Yes the piston is alloy, forged by the look of it with 2 rings. The sleeve is steel.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2014, 04:03:45 PM »
OK, so I have started the rebuild in earnest now that I have a lathe again.
The first item on the agenda was the spacer to align the cylinder into the crankcase.
After that was done and fitted I remachined the fins on the cylinder barrel to a more even and "finished" appearance.
The next piece was the head. I did not have a piece of cast iron on hand to suit, so I opted for the aluminium 6061-T6. I machined it to size, cut some fins, and after numerous cuts and settings on the rotary table and cutter and drill changes, I had a head replacement.
The valve cages are next.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 01:04:19 AM »
The valve cages were made, valves seated, installed into the head, drilled the ports and tapped them 1/4-32, made up an inlet manifold/tube, and put the whole thing back together. There was not a lot of compression, so I pulled it apart and machined .040" off the bottom of the alum. barrel to close up the deck height. Now it does have compression.
Next I setup a 1966 Honda 90 coil, a B&S condenser, and a 4 pack of 1.5V AA's and checked if the points work. They do and it sparks at the plug.
Next I need a gas tank and a bit of setting up, a drive dog to crank it with and see if/how it runs.
 
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 01:09:09 AM »
I picked that carb up at a model swap meet about 25 yrs ago. My research shows that it is similar to an ETW design. It was rough, and did not have a spring under the vacuum operated valve. I have added a light one into it, and when you turn the motor over by hand you can feel , see and hear it opening.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
  • Switzerland
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 05:37:56 AM »
I was confused, why would Brown and Sharpe make condensers, then it clicked Briggs and Stratton  :facepalm:

Looking good. Hopefully not long to the first run  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :popcorn:
Best regards

Roger

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2014, 04:58:45 AM »
I have not fired it up yet, I am having spark trouble, among other things!!! The drive dog needed remakeing, the flywheel came loose after it backfired twice, etc etc. I am picking up a new spark plug tomorrow, maybe try running before end of week.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2014, 04:32:34 AM »
Well, I had it firing, as long as I had the drill attached. Soon as I removed that it stopped. I played with cam timing ignition timing, compression ratio, fuel, and then built a larger flywheel. Well it ran for 2 seconds, and seized up solid. The crank had seized into the main bearing. I had attempted to keep plenty of oil in the case but it blows out pretty quick.
I lowered the compression by adding copper washers to the spark plug. The bigend of the rod is also screwed. so a new rod, a new front main and some more rethinking as to why it will not just run!!
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline HobbyNut

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 307
  • Surrey BC
    • What I do
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2014, 04:37:20 AM »
Actually the rod was OK, it was just the main bushing that was shot. It was cast iron?....I made a bronze one and reassembled it. I am going to make a new carb, maybe a Fellows or Rupnow type.
PatO
I started out with nothing, I still have most of it left.

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
  • Switzerland
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2014, 12:21:03 PM »
Have you got any further with this one?
Best regards

Roger

Offline fidlstyks

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 52
Re: Rebuilding an unknown 4 stroke single.
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2015, 04:19:03 PM »
as far as identification,  I had a similar model and  have seen several others , some on ebay, all a little different. It was my understanding they were a design that the blue prints  of had been published in a magazine like Popular Science . Some were made as school projects. They run as good as their builders !