Author Topic: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps  (Read 13628 times)

Offline Ridddervold

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Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« on: March 18, 2014, 08:52:18 PM »
Hi you all, this is my first post on this forum so please be kind!

I have designed and manufactured a flame licker engine at the university workshop for a couple of months now, and the time has come when I should get it to run.. but I can't! I don't even get an honest attempt from it to start.

I have tried following:
  • Sanding cylinder and piston with 1200 grit paper for hours until 100% smooth. There is a good seal.
  • Making sure the valve and cylinder hole is 100% flat. There is a good seal here too.
  • Erasing friction to a minimum.
  • Three different stroke lengths and some valve timings.
  • Placing the wick at different positions (the flame is good, clean and strong, I'm burning 90-95% alcohol)
  • Three different flywheels; one large but light aluminum, one large and heavier aluminum and one small but quite heavy iron. I have never made any calculations of the size and weight though.
  • Heating and cooling the cylinder before trying to start it

I have designed the engine myself. (I have attached the CAD-model.) The materials aren't quite right in the CAD-model, everything is made out of aluminium except the valve (brass) and the piston (teflon). I've only oiled the crank shaft slightly with very light oil, the cylinder and valve is all dry (possibly a bit of graphite). There is a spring retracting the valve, it is as soft possible.
When trying the different adjustments I've noticed that the engine from time to time makes popping noices when turning, both with and without the flame. The sound is stronger with the flame though. A problem (I think?) is that the valve seems too be blowing out air on the stroke when it's supposed to be sealing because of sub-atmospheric pressure.

I hope I can get some help from you guys since it seems like many of you have the proper knowledge and experience. When I get the engine running I get my engineering degree!  :cartwheel:
Please excuse my spelling, I'm Swedish!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2014, 09:00:26 PM by Ridddervold »

Offline mklotz

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2014, 09:09:54 PM »
Use the heaviest flywheel.

Really preheat the cylinder.  Despite the fact that it acts as a heat sink to quench the gas, it needs to be fairly hot.  At least that's my experience.  Preheat the valve as well.

Try some light oil in the cylinder.  Graphite is good at reducing friction but not so good at sealing.

Don't worry about your spelling.  It's better than 95% of the native English speakers on this forum.
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 09:13:50 PM »
Erik,
First of all welcome to the forum. If possible we would like for you to post an introduction in the intro section about yourself. Things like what type of engineering you are studying, other experiences with model engines, what the school shop is like and so on.

As to the problem at hand, It might also help to post a few pictures of your engine for those that don't have the ability to open Solidworks files. A short video of you turning the engine over showing the crank position relative to the valve could also be of help in diagnosing the problem.  You seem to have address the usual things that prevent running though flame lickers are notoriously hard to get to run at times until everything is just so. Friction is of course the enemy in these engines. I have also found that the piston/cylinder seal can be too good at times. There seems to be a very fine line between sealing and adding friction, though a sloppy fit isn't good either.

From what you say I would lean towards a timing problem but that is more an opinion than a diagnosis at this point.  I am sure other members will offer ideas as well. Best wishes in getting it to run and finishing up your degree!!

Bill

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 09:48:54 PM »
Heating the cylinder, switching to 98% alcohol and using graphite in the bore all helped to get mine running.

Offline Ridddervold

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 10:08:30 PM »
Thank you for your replies! I will take some pictures of it tomorrow and try to get a good video of it so you can see the valve timing and so. How heavy a flywheel am I looking for in this type of engine? I can make some calculations considering moment of inertia, crankpin length, assumed negative air pressure and bore but I think it is better to partake of your experiences.

I will get on with posting some information as soon as I get the time!

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2014, 01:45:30 AM »
It would perhaps be useful to see a movie showing the flame being drawn in. Maybe it's just not drawing enough in or not at the right time. Good luck.

Alan

Offline PStechPaul

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 06:10:44 AM »
I had no idea what a "flame licker" engine was, but I found a video that explains it somewhat. The hot gas is pulled into the cylinder through a valve which then closes, and as the gas cools it creates a vacuum (or pressure differential to atmospheric) which draws the piston back for another "gulp" of hot air...
 
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkaz9rDJWQ4" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkaz9rDJWQ4</a>

Offline Ridddervold

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 10:34:59 AM »
I'll post some pics and a video in a couple of hours. A thought just crossed my mind though; can it be that the wall on the left side of the valve hole prevents gas from getting sucked in properly?

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 12:08:31 PM »
     I  Don't like the idea of using aluminium for the cylinder, it has high friction, and with the heat required to run one of these motors, maybe it is distorting,  also the piston is going to get very hot.   It would be better if the cylinder was at least lined with steel, or better still cast iron,  and the piston made of cast iron.  It would also be possible to make a good (maybe better),piston from graphite.
      My first flame licker took a year to get going, I made my second one 4 or 5 years ago, it still won't go.   Ian S C

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 12:25:12 PM »
Ian, I agree with you as to the graphite piston. I am not sure I have heard of Teflon being used before. Even though it is more thermally stable than many/most plastics, I wonder about how the top of the piston would react being in closer contact to the direct heat of the flame. The Philip Duclos flame eater as shown in the video Paul posted does have an aluminum cylinder though and a steel piston as designed, even though many builders have changed that to graphite (as I should do with mine). Even so it is a tried and true runner, so I am not sure that aluminum per se is the culprit.

Bill

Offline fumopuc

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 08:15:03 PM »
Hi Ridddervold, the combination of aluminum and teflon sounds a bit strange for me too. I do not have any experience with this. My one has a brass cylinder and a graphite piston. A graphite piston should run only and ever dry. No oil or other grease.
I made the mistake that my first piston has had to much clearance. After making a bigger one with nearly zero clearance it was a runner. http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2836.0.html
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline NickG

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 08:48:03 PM »
Agree with all that has been said here - would be good to see some pics or convert the CAD models into a more readable format. I've made 3 flame lickers so far, the first one I had a lot of trouble with, more due to it's unorthodox valve design. That had a cast iron cylinder and piston. The next ones I made were to the poppin design but had graphite pistons and cast iron cylinders - both of these ran more or less with the first flick of the flywheel.

I wouldn't bother with calculations but the heaviest flywheel won't necessarily be the best, it may cause too much friction in the bearings which could be reduced by a lighter but larger diameter flywheel while not compromising the moment of inertia too much.

I think cast iron is the ideal cylinder material, I want to make a graphite piston for my first engine as I think that will make .

I am interested to see the way the valve operates - the cam should force the valve shut at around 45 degrees before bottom dead centre, then depending on the stiffness of the spring and the valve configuration, you'll get a 'latching' effect and the valve will open when it's good and ready in spite of what the cam is doing. i.e. when the pressure inside the cylinder becomes greater than atmospheric again the valve will be pushed off it's seat if allowed to do so. This is the best method, rather than forcibly opening the valve with a cam at a predetermined time.

We need to see schematics of the engine to speculate any more on this though.

Nick

fcheslop

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 10:54:31 PM »
Sorry Im not able to view youre drawings.
As Bill Iv had no problems using alloy for the cylinders as long as they are lubricated using graphite.
I have made two of my own design and have found that 110 to 120 degrees of valve duration works well and that the valve just covers the port by about 1mm max and that the valve is able to lift to allow for exhaust the spring pressure just needs to be enough to hold the valve onto the cylinder and no more
best wishes
frazer

Offline Ridddervold

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2014, 12:05:48 AM »
Thanks for all your answers! Here are some images of the engine. I've attached a brass plate between the cylinder and valve, sealed with high temperature silicone which works fine, no signs of melting or anything despite the heat of the flame.

Pictures are also showing the crank shaft, graphite in the cylinder (coming from the teflon that actually has a small percentage of it) and variable stroke lengths. I will post a video of it turning soon, the silicone was still sticky though, so I didn't mount the valve. The wobbling of the flywheel doesn't seem to have any impact, it spins for about 100 seconds on a firm push.

Edit: Managed to get a video uploaded to youtube:
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJnKuO_r3a8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJnKuO_r3a8</a>
« Last Edit: March 20, 2014, 09:31:32 AM by Ridddervold »

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 01:54:38 PM »
That brass plate looks pretty rough. It and the valve plate (not shown?) need to be near perfect flats to each other for the valve to seal.

Alan

Offline Stuart

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 02:50:53 PM »
that spring will not be helping it that position you need a very light compression spring like the ones found in a retractable ball point pen. between the guide and the yoke , it needs to be only just strong enough to hold the ball bearing on the cam

also as has been stated the brass needs to be a lot smoother lap it on a surface plate with some 1200 grit wet and dry paper also do the valve

another point is the flame big enough it will need to be about 30mm high when it runs you will be surprised how small the flame looks when its pulled into the port

the engine when timed and fitted up should make a farting sound when turned over

take a look at a little blazer for the spring and valve timing , the position of the flame is very critical to get a run

my little blazer runs like a mad thing but only when I use paraffin as a fuel I cannot get a run out of meths , mine has a aluminium cylinder and a cast iron piston carefully fitted

Hope that helps and good luck

maybe it would have been better to cut your teeth on a proven design but even then they can be tricky then move on to create one of your own


Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline 90LX_Notch

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 03:15:54 PM »
Riddervold-

The valve should be  fully closed some where around 45 degrees BBDC as frazer stated.  In your video the valve should be  fully closed around the 0:10/0:11 mark which it is not.

-Bob
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Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 03:30:09 PM »
Riddervold,
It does not seem that friction is a problem. As others have said the timing could be off slightly, but another thing worries me a bit now after seeing the video. I am wondering if the piston diameter is large enough. On both my Duclos designed engine as well as the poppin, the ratio of the piston diameter to the cylinder OD is much larger....meaning that the cylinder walls are thinner. I don't know the limits of the design parameters required to get a flame licker to run, but I think you may be below the minimum as far as piston diameter.

Bill

Offline mklotz

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 03:49:16 PM »
Riddervold,
It does not seem that friction is a problem. As others have said the timing could be off slightly, but another thing worries me a bit now after seeing the video. I am wondering if the piston diameter is large enough. On both my Duclos designed engine as well as the poppin, the ratio of the piston diameter to the cylinder OD is much larger....meaning that the cylinder walls are thinner. I don't know the limits of the design parameters required to get a flame licker to run, but I think you may be below the minimum as far as piston diameter.

Bill's comment is right on.  If the thermal mass of the cylinder is too large, it will remain cool enough to "quench" the hot gas before the valve has a chance to shut and maintain the vacuum.  One of the reasons these engines are tricky is the fact that the cylinder must be warm enough to not prematurely quench yet cool enough to quench when the valve is shut. 

As a test of this conjecture, try playing a flame on the cylinder while trying to run the engine.  If keeping the cylinder hotter allows it to run, we'll at least know we're on to something.  [Sadly, if it doesn't run with the extra heat, that doesn't prove the conjecture wrong.]
Regards, Marv
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Arbalest

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 05:36:33 PM »
I've pre-heated mine with a hot air gun to good effect.

Offline NickG

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 04:30:15 PM »
Again agree with all the comments, valve is definitely shutting too late. With regards to quenching effect that is true too, my Ridders flame licker needs to heat up for 10 minutes before starting or blow torch as Marv says whereas my poppins with graphite piston both start from cold.

Offline Ridddervold

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2014, 01:33:02 PM »
Alright I've made a new aluminum cylinder with 21.3 mm bore and a steel piston. The fit is perfect and I'm using graphite as a lubricant. The valve is smooth and creates a prefect seal to the cylinder. However it doesn't want to start. I've shot a new video of it: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msHGo4fLpTQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msHGo4fLpTQ</a>

Arbalest

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2014, 02:15:31 PM »
Flame position can be quite critical as well. Move the flame closer, it's too far away in the video.

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2014, 02:36:38 PM »
Here is all the information I had to build my flame licker.  Ian S C

Offline NickG

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2014, 05:00:07 PM »
Aluminium cylinder and steel piston is asking for
Trouble due to differential expansion. I tried an aluminium piston in steel cylinder, result was that after 5 minutes of the flame being near it seized completely. I expect the clearance in yours is getting larger as it heats up. Think the valve is closing too late too and flame position is wrong. The port may be too large too.

Offline mklotz

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2014, 05:35:10 PM »
Was the cylinder preheated before trying in the video?  Get it good and hot and give it another try.  Nothing to lose.

My Poppin has an aluminum cylinder and a stainless piston, oil lubricated, and it runs well.  Unlike yours, the cylinder is finned.  I don't know if that's important.
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fcheslop

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2014, 06:09:00 PM »
Is the timing correct as it looks as if the flame is blown away from the port and I cannot hear the characteristic noise of it exhausting and you also seem to have a vacuum at the wrong time ?????
When you turn the engine over can you hear it exhausting a bit like an old man farting  .

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2014, 06:10:04 PM »
Try preheating as Marv suggests first. While I don't know it to be face I have never seen a design without fins so that could still be an issue also. I still think the piston is too small as well relative to the cylinder diameter (and thermal mass). Don't give up on it...you will be glad you didn't once you get it running well :)

Bill

fcheslop

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2014, 08:34:12 PM »
See if this is of any help.Its A Duclos engine and in my opinion he designed the best runners to date.
She is now over 25 years old so forgive the rattles
The crank is at bottom dead centre and turning the flywheel clockwise
Note the position of the valve
 
This is at Top Dead Centre the valve cover half of the port

This is the engine turning over by hand you can hear the exhaust

Start up no pre heat needed on this engine

Running at tick over at no time do you see the flame blow all over the place

The only time I can get the engine to vacuum as you show is if I turn the engine the wrong way.
It maybe a timing problem.
I have built these engines with a 3/8 bore and 1/2 stroke with no problems but the smaller you go the more important free running becomes.
Good luck
kind regards
frazer

« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 08:46:10 PM by fcheslop »

Offline 90LX_Notch

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2014, 10:20:53 PM »
My observations-

I agree with frazer; the timing appears to be off.  It's hard to do with YouTube, but a frame by frame doesn't show the flame being drawn into the port anywhere near where it should be. 

The color of your flame is yellow;  alcohol should be burning blue as in frazer's picture.  When my burner starts running low on alcohol and flame turns yellow, my Poppin stops running.

Try going to the john-tom site and looking at the plans for the Poppin engine and study the cam.  Part of your timing issue could include your cam design.

-Bob
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fcheslop

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2014, 10:48:36 PM »
Just re watched youre video and think the timing is out check out youre top dead centre compared to the Duclos .Youre engine appears to have the valve fully open although it maybe the angle of the shot.
Dont know where you reside if its in the UK meths is not the best fuel and its hygroscopic and that maybe the reason for the yellow flame.
I use shellac thinners
Good luck 

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2014, 09:26:23 AM »
IMO, the valve is not airtight and does not control air movements. When turning the engine backward, you must feel a very good compression, and this is not so in the second video. When you are running your engine forward, we do not hear the noise of air though the valve, as expected, (a sort of intestinal noise...), but only the mechanical clattering.
Therefore the air movements are not driven by the valve.
Those engines can be very noisy when running, owing to air movements, just like a trumpet, and if you do not hear air passing, check valve tightness and timing.
The power stroke is only the first part of the return journey back to the top dead centre, when atmospheric pressure could be somewhat higher than the cylinder pressure, and push the piston backward, and this is not that easy to domesticate.
The mass of the cylinder is also far too large, you have to cut fins, as in the first cylinder.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 01:45:20 PM by Zephyrin »

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2014, 08:14:50 PM »
Dont know where you reside if its in the UK meths is not the best fuel and its hygroscopic and that maybe the reason for the yellow flame.
I use shellac thinners
Good luck

Hi Frazer.

Where do you buy your shellac thinners?

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!
Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

fcheslop

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2014, 09:17:14 PM »
Hi David, Trade paint suppliers usually stock it for French Polishing

Arbalest

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2014, 09:34:54 PM »
I bought some of this because I thought it may be industrial meths. Not sure if it is though and I haven't actually tried it as some one gave me a small bottle of 99% Alchohol.

https://www.dm-tools.co.uk/product.php/section/8621/sn/RPWCWA2815#.U0RceMu9KSM

Offline Ridddervold

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2014, 12:28:05 PM »
I'm going to give it another try quite soon, and I'll take another look at the valve timing.
Meanwhile I've been given the task of estimating the total friction in the engine. At the moment I'm calculating the friction between the piston and the cylinder, does anyone have any good equations for estimating the friction between the valve-to-cylinder, valve axle-to-cylinder, cam-to-valve axle and crankshaft-to-flywheel bearings?
I really appreciate your help so far!  ^-^

Offline Ian S C

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2014, 02:57:11 PM »
HI, Friction, start with the piston.  With the con rod disconnected, and clean and dry (no oil), with the cylinder open at both ends, and vertical, put the piston in the cylinder, it should drop through, next seal the bottom with your hand, and put the piston back in, and it should move very slowly under its own weight, if that test goes OK, move on, if not, ie., a bit tight, polish the piston  until it fits, if its too loose, make another one.
      While the con rod is disconnected, flip the flywheel, it should turn for quite a time.  The big end should be quite free.
       Try a lighter spring on the valve.
       At first my motor would only run on a flame from my gas torch, but after a time it ran on meths,  so it might be an idea to try the torch, with a small burner on it.  The original drawing of my motor shows a gas burner.    Ian S C

Offline NickG

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Re: Flame licker won't run, seems like nothing helps
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2014, 09:39:45 PM »
Industrial meths works well, noticeable difference to the usual purple stuff.

 

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