Do-it-yourself warranties or " Your new South Bend is screwed"

[sshire]

Just wanted to throw this out for comments on the machine tool manufacturers/distributor's policy of expecting the owner of a brand new, under-warrenty machine to repair it him/herself.

The issue was some HMEM members with new 8K SB lathes having bearing/spindle issues due to a manufacturing screw-up. 

The post is here ( starts with post # 88)

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/f13/south-bend-8k-photos-22246/index9.html

My comment 



I really have to admire your restraint. If I had purchased, what I believed to be, a first-rate lathe, and had the spindle and bearing issues, I would have either returned it, or insisted that they send a tech to make it right. I understand that with most Chinese machinery, it is to be expected that it's not a finished product and some work and/ or mods will be necessary. This was the case with my Grizzly G0602. It worked fine out of the box but I've done some work to make it smoother, more rigid, etc.
With a "South Bend" ( quotes intentional) I would expect that it was a finished product. I do understand that things can go wrong, but if the issue is a factory defect ( witness grease on the bearings) , the factory ( in this case Grizzly) has to make it right without the owner doing the repair. 
Let's say we purchase a new automobile and there is a wheel bearing problem. I take it to the dealer and they repair it under warranty. They certainly don't ship me the replacement bearings and say "have at it." 
You can't just drive the lathe to Grizzly if you are a thousand miles away and even if youre close, moving a lathe out of the shop, into a truck or onto a trailer is not a trivial task. 
It seems that we are now expected, after spending thousands of dollars (or whatever you unit of currency happens to be) on a tool, to repair an in-warrenty problem. This is not acceptable. 
I don't know what the solution is. Grizzly is not a small Mom and Pop distributor. They have major resources, but it appears that these resources are directed more toward sales than toward customer service.
While anytime I had an issue with my lathe, Grizzly was very good about sending parts, this is what we should expect. That's only a part of the solution.
Suppose you have never replaced a bearing or removed a spindle. I would be quite uncomfortable tearing down a new, multi- thousand dollar lathe.
Forgive the rant and rambling and I don't have an answer.
Just saying.

[philjoe5]

Stan,
I've been following that thread and feel the same way.  Grizzly is good about sending replacement parts.  The problem many of us face is after getting a 400 lb machine into our basements we pretty much are on our own.  Grizzly isn't going to send a tech to my house for service so I'm stuck with the repair work.  In the case of the SB 8k though I would have brought it back to Grizzly since I think at 250 lb I could manage it myself.

I bought a G0463 Mill/Drill in 2007, and paid guys to get it in my basement.  It weighs a solid 400 lb.  When I tried putting some of my R8 tooling in the spindle it wouldn't fit.  Grizzly sent me a new spindle, but it had the same problem.  Happily I checked it before installing it.  When the Grizzly tech told me what was involved in replacing the spindle I sure did not want to tear down a new machine to that level.  Meanwhile, I discovered workarounds for the tooling that didn't fit.  I am hoping I don't have electrical problems with it but if I do I'll need to rely on my buddies for help.

Cheers,
Phil

[sshire]

Phil
What you said is true, but...

Chinese stuff? I expect to be the QC and repair guy.

If Grizzly is really committed to making "real" South Bend machines, then it is expected that they would never allow this to happen. More than one SB snuck out of Taiwan with this problem. Other than the HMEM guys, we don't know how many.

The manufacturers of my refrigerator, range, central A/C, etc. sure as hell don't expect me to haul them to their service facility if there is a problem so why are we OK with fixing machines that cost as much or more ourselves?

If Grizzly is trying to revive the SB name as a "boutique", high end machine, they need to do some "value-added" thinking.

Rant finished 

[Mosey]

Why don't we ask Grizzly nicely, to respond to the problem?
Mosey   

[philjoe5]

Stan,
You're preaching to the choir.  I would expect much better quality from a "South Bend" with an 8" swing lathe that retails on sale at almost 1.5x the better Chinese lathes, like Lathemaster or Little Machine Shop.  I would have hauled that SB back to Grizzly and asked for a replacement while they wait 2 months for spindle bearings.  If I couldn't haul it back, I think I might send a link to the thread detailing this problem so that Grizzly understands the audience this situation is getting.

I followed the thread and I believe I stated I was impressed with the performance the machine was giving.  Now, I'd just take a chance with the less expensive machines from the aforementioned vendors.  If you followed the 10x22 yahoo lathe forum a few years ago, a number of folks had early spindle bearing failure.  Luckily, I didn't.

I agree with Mosey.  Maybe, we as a group, could put some pressure on Grizzly for better service on their machines that demand a premium because of the nameplate.  I think an individual trying to do that won't change things.

Phil

[steamer]

Hey guys,

Can't agree more.    I took my SB rebuild in place of the NEW ones....I just didn't trust the new one.

They need to make it right, or the golden service reputation of Grizzly will suffer as well as "South Bend" boutique name.

Dave

[Dave Otto]

I have to wonder would grease really ruin a bearing? and the inner races spun and ruined the spindle? I would think the whole thing would come to a screeching halt before the bearing spun on the spindle.

My lathe, a German Tool Room lathe has a double row roller bearing (very expensive) in the front and a large angular contact bearing in the rear and they both run in grease. They have Zerk type fittings and the manual says to give them 6 to 8 strokes every three months with the grease gun. I only lube it about once a year as it is not a production machine.

I'm not saying that Grizzly shouldn't make it right, I just wonder if there is something else going on here that caused this failure? Any bearing experts here?

Dave

[steamer]

There's nothing particularly special about that spindle.   It's a pair of taper roller bearings.   Grease packed taper roller bearings run for years in your wheel bearings of your car, and in millions of lathes in the world.   I suspect the real reason is that the casting wasn't cleaned properly before it was assembled.

If you have one, sure run oil.   But clean it well first.   I think the black grease is really grease with a lot of crap in it.

Dave

[Mosey]

As I understand it, grease is oil with a filler.
Mosey

[Dave Otto]

Seems to make since Dave, I had also wondered about the black grease.

Mosey, I have heard that that filler is usually some type soap material.

Dave

[steamer]

All grease is just that, oil with a thickener.   Yes a soap is a classic thickener used in grease.   The point is once the bearing warms up, it melts the grease and the oil flows into the bearing....where it pushes back out and cools off again...all the grease does is keep the oil in the proximity of where it's needed.

Sounds like just plain piss poor manufacturing.    There are millions of lathes out there running grease....My Logan for instance....with dual angular contact bearings...is a grease pack.    We ran Heald red head spindles  at Heald....way back when I worked there...in grease up to 14000 rpm for grinding spindles.

Yes Grease pack.   works great.

The geometry needs to be good, and the bearings need to be clean.

Grizzly should be ashamed that he needs to do this.  The lubrication method should be a forgone Engineered solution...in the manual, with maintenance procedures....   Period.   Not Re-engineering it as you go, wondering what bearing fits you SHOULD have...ect.

Nope .....piss poor.   Makes me say bad words.   

Dave

[philjoe5]

My Logan, made in 1947, has the original grease in its spindle bearings also and hasn't any spindle issues either.  I understand it is very easy to improperly press fit bearings and wonder if that's what's going on here.

Phil

[Maryak]

A couple more points about grease.

Too much is as bad as too little..............1/3 of the annular space in the bearing is the "normal" amount of grease to be applied.

If the grease contains Molybdenum Disulphide and it is packed too tightly into the bearing then as the Moly overheats it forms an abrasive compound which does the bearing no favours.

There are commonly 2 "black" greases, those containing MOS₂ and those containing Graphite which is a truer high temperature grease.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob
 
 

[steamer]

As to quality.  Well....you know.   KISS is a wonderful thing.    KEEP IT SIMPLE......Simon....

Case in point.    What my 62 year old SB 9A  spindle looked like when I took it apart during the rebuild.



Still a mirror finish!

62 years spent in a mold shop, and alternator rebuild shop.....probably with little if any maintenance.....

It runs on cast iron bearings with a wick.    It didn't even need to have the bearings taken up!....It went back together just as a found it but with a new wick....that's it.

Good Engineering is part of the quality....not as a sale after the fact.

Dave

[steamer]

A couple more points about grease.

Too much is as bad as too little..............1/3 of the annular space in the bearing is the "normal" amount of grease to be applied.

If the grease contains Molybdenum Disulphide and it is packed too tightly into the bearing then as the Moly overheats it forms an abrasive compound which does the bearing no favours.

There are commonly 2 "black" greases, those containing MOS₂ and those containing Graphite which is a truer high temperature grease.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards
Bob
 
 

Yes but on a machine tool, the last thing you want is a large temperature rise.   It makes the machine move especially the spindle.  In this case it may affect the preload on the bearings as the bearings on that design are rather far apart.

Check www.lathes.co.uk.      Check Gamut, American Pacemaker, and quite a few others .....Taper roller bearings in lathes is pretty common.   I would think a spindle this size should work fine with grease pack if it's done correctly.   


Dave

[sshire]

I agree. Grease isn't the problem. If it is then it's not the only one. The poor guys who paid either $3265.00 or $1965.00 for a lathe (albeit a very accurate lathe) without a quick change gearbox, no power cross feed, threading range from 10-32 tpi and a 4-way tool post deserve better from Grizzly than "here's the parts. Good luck" The responses I've gotten from them seem to say that they're OK with fixing the problem. I would have had that under-300 pound puppy in the trunk and driven to Muncy in a flash.

BTW here's the lube spec for the headstock

Headstock Fluid Type........................................................... ISO 32 (eg. Grizzly T23963, Mobil DTE Light)

[Stuart]

If you look up the bearings in question on the manufactures web site SKF. FAG or why

You will find two speed ratings one for oil and one for grease

Now as you know I have replaced the AC bearings in my lathe this led me to do a lot of web research .

Now the ones fitted were 7007 series's  from memory ( May not be accurate) grease was approx 15000 rpm and oil was 30000 rpm

It would seem its a function of how the bearing can push the lubbrication out of the way without overheating

Now I would assume that the OEM fitting would not have been a high precision set let alone matched pair
And the speed low good clean grease would have been fine

I would go with a bad ,unclean assembly at the birth of the lathe
Also how many are out there in the wild with grease in that are working satisfactorily with the owners quite unaware that it has grease in the bearings

BTW I run mine on oil even with its top end of only 3000 rpm as the lathe calls for nuto32 in all the zerks and that what the oil gun is filled with keep it simple one gun all the zerks no mistakes

Stuart

[steamer]

I agree. Grease isn't the problem. If it is then it's not the only one. The poor guys who paid either $3265.00 or $1965.00 for a lathe (albeit a very accurate lathe) without a quick change gearbox, no power cross feed, threading range from 10-32 tpi and a 4-way tool post deserve better from Grizzly than "here's the parts. Good luck" The responses I've gotten from them seem to say that they're OK with fixing the problem. I would have had that under-300 pound puppy in the trunk and driven to Muncy in a flash.

BTW here's the lube spec for the headstock

Headstock Fluid Type........................................................... ISO 32 (eg. Grizzly T23963, Mobil DTE Light)

Is that in the manual?   if it is, then our friends at Grizzly got "some splainin to do"!  How did the grease get in there in the first place?

[steamer]

If you look up the bearings in question on the manufactures web site SKF. FAG or why

You will find two speed ratings one for oil and one for grease

Now as you know I have replaced the AC bearings in my lathe this led me to do a lot of web research .

Now the ones fitted were 7007 series's  from memory ( May not be accurate) grease was approx 15000 rpm and oil was 30000 rpm

It would seem its a function of how the bearing can push the lubbrication out of the way without overheating

Now I would assume that the OEM fitting would not have been a high precision set let alone matched pair
And the speed low good clean grease would have been fine

I would go with a bad ,unclean assembly at the birth of the lathe
Also how many are out there in the wild with grease in that are working satisfactorily with the owners quite unaware that it has grease in the bearings

BTW I run mine on oil even with its top end of only 3000 rpm as the lathe calls for nuto32 in all the zerks and that what the oil gun is filled with keep it simple one gun all the zerks no mistakes

Stuart

It's all about managing the heat generated, and the heat dissipated.   Grease is cheap and cheerful, and pretty simple to implement, but it generates more viscous shear, and therefore more heat.    Oil doesn't want to hang around, so it's implementation is more complicated and expensive, but it doesn't generate as much viscous shear and therefore less heat.   It also carries the heat away more efficiently.    Those aspects result in the speed range differences you see.

But we're only talking like 3000 rpm here.  It's not that fast at all!
As a data point, by 70 year old Atlas had Timken taper roller bearings in it, and worked just fine with whatever oil I put in it.

Dave

[steamer]

And Yes all of Bobs comments apply here....was it over filled, did they use the wrong grease...what quality grease did they use?....was it contaminated?

None of this is rocket science.....makes me mad.   It would seem a simple thing to get right in the first place.

Dave

[Mosey]

Sorry to repeat myself, but this is a question for Grizzly to answer, as the manufacturer and vendor,  "What is the problem, and what are you going to do about it?"
Mosey

[sshire]

Mosey
They did contact Grizzly and explained the problem. Grizzly's answer was "no problem. Well ship you the parts in 3 or 4 weeks and you can install them"
To me that is unacceptable for a "SB"

[Mosey]

I couldn't agree more. It's time to get tough, I think, and tell them to pay for the fix. I don't know the details of the warranttee, but perhaps it's time to consult one of those guys in the dark blue pinstripe suits?
Are these new machines, failing under short term use?
Mosey

[sshire]

Mosey
The HMEM link is in the first post of this thread. They go into the whole story there.

[PStechPaul]

Servicing large, heavy equipment is (obviously) a problem for manufacturers. The companies I have worked for make test sets which weigh as much as 1500 pounds, but they have casters and are designed for some portability. When there are problems, or even when they just need PM or calibration, in most cases it is much cheaper to send a technician on-site to do the work. But these are typically $5000-$40,000 machines, and it is reasonable to spend 10% or 20% of the cost for service. The units are generally priced with 30% or more profit so that a service call still does not result in a net loss. It costs roughly $500-$1000 to ship such a unit each way, while sending a technician may be half that. But there is the risk that the repair might require special parts or extensive work which cannot be done in the field, in which case the unit must be returned to the factory anyway. And there is also the risk of damage during shipment.
 
It seems that there should be (or could be) local technicians who could be hired by the manufacturer to perform service on machine tools. A warranty repair should include the cost of labor to perform the work, and I think it should be an option for the owner of the tool to be paid for the time spent, as long as s/he has the skills and experience to do the job properly. Thus, it might take four hours at $50/hr for the repair, which is much cheaper than the other options.

[zeeprogrammer]

Of course part of the answer is to get it right the first time.
Quality control.
Some may still get out...Murphy plagues anyone and everyone...but you can afford better service if you have fewer problems.

[Tin Falcon]

I would not be too hard on grizzly. I agree it is a pain to self install parts but most of us that own machine tools have the skills.
Without getting into detail I do service work . Often things sent in for warranty are dismissed  as customer abuse item dropped water in unit etc. and service companies are given a flat labor rate for replacing parts.  These rates are based Ideal conditions. And notice I said replace parts there are little allowances for troubleshooting. Sometimes it is difficult to find what part(s) failed . I have seen where all suspect parts were overnight shipped. then I find a rodent chewed wire fix the problem with no parts and then the parts need to be purchased or returned . the warranty does not cover the shipping in this case. Only if a part is used. And in other cases multiple parts are needed and installed.
So called lifetime warranties are often pro rated . So Grizzly is not the only company to have warranty limits and conditions. And issues are not limited to machine tools. 
I do agree though something sold as a premium product and sold at a premium price should be backed by the manufacture and the company the sold it . for a reasonable amount of time a year at least. And full in store replacement only works if you are less than an hour from the store and the item is still stocked if yours breaks.

From what I understand someone demanded that the company that made the Liberty bell (White Chapel bell foundry) replace the bell on the grounds the original product was defective. They agree to repair or replacement as long as the unit was returned to the factory in its original packaging.

Hmm
Tin

[Mosey]

I believe that in the German auto industry, nothing is repaired in the US. Everything is removed as a unit and replaced, while the problem unit is shipped back to Germany for repair and appropriate execution of the offending original assembler.
Mosey

[fcheslop]

Sorry modified this post as it may have been deemed offensive. I sincerely apologise if that was the case.
Personally take it back and dump it on the counter and request a refund in full.
If enough people did so they would soon get there act together it makes my blood boil the way its now acceptable to have poor after sales service.
I also work in the service sector and to be blunt if I had the same attitude my customers would have my balls and I would be very quickly out of work

[smfr]

Possibly naive question: is the new "South Bend" stuff made in China?

Simon

[sshire]

Simon
Don't mention China to the "new SB" owners. They prefer "Taiwan"

[zeeprogrammer]

I believe that in the German auto industry, nothing is repaired in the US. Everything is removed as a unit and replaced, while the problem unit is shipped back to Germany for repair and appropriate execution of the offending original assembler.

Touches a small point with me. Had a couple of Beetles, a Rabbit, and now a Passat. (Well...T has the Passat.)
Burns me that they seem to have gone the way of other car manufacturers...

Gotta spend $1000 in labor just to remove/replace a bunch of stuff just to get at the offending $5 part.

The answer we got was...they never expected that part to go bad.
Are you kidding? If you never heard of Murphy...you're not an engineer or a technician.

No matter how low the risk is...it happens. And too often people think...oh...it'll only affect 0.1% of the sales.
0.1% of 1million is 1000 upset customers. (1000? Is that right?)

All numbers are for illustrative purposes only and entirely made up. 
Rant...such as it is...is probably over. 

[mark rand]

The South Bend 8K model is being sold at $2,064 by Grizzly ($3,250 list). Compare that with £13,000==$20,000 for the last lathes Myford made in the UK and you can see that it isn't a premium priced product. There's sod all profit margin in that lathe.

I'd be happy if the manufacturer/distributor sent me the repair parts FOC and was prepared to trust me to install them, rather than subjecting me to the cost of an 'engineer' to drive/fly out and do the same.

[Jo]

That sounds too cheap to be a real South Bend, where was it made

I have the original receipt for my Colchester Master somewhere at home, I think it was £21K ($32K) in 1979. I have been told that if I need to replace the Gamet headstock bearings that they will cost me  £7K today, you could buy three of those lathes for that price 

Jo

[Alan Haisley]

It looks like the 8K is made in China while the bigger lathes are made in Taiwan.

[Mosey]

Remember when cheap imported junk came from Japan? Obviously, they have overcome that reputation by producing some very fine precision goods. So, if you wait long enough, the Chinese will decide to make quality goods also.
I believe that some of the original South Bend lathes were made in Korea, but they always were of high quality. I'd rather buy an old, well made machine than a new piece of you know what and re-manufacture it myself. In fact, I did, an old 10K with flame-hardened bed.
Mosey   

[Maryak]

SB was also copied in Oz and known as Hercus. Just about every school, TAFE college, Uni workshop had many of them, older imperial, newer metric. They are a very nice small machine but IMHO way overpriced like Myfords. A bit like cars before the Japanese forced the Western manufacturers to provide things like floor carpet, radios, heaters etc as standard in the base models. Or again like cars you go broke.

Best Regards
Bob