Author Topic: An Italian (5cc) Beauty  (Read 75239 times)

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2014, 06:49:23 PM »
Ramon:

I agree with Roger B, very sleek and somehow Italian looking. Will be fun to watch it come together.

Hugh
Hugh

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2014, 10:55:31 PM »
Hi Guys - I'm somewhat taken aback and very pleasantly surprised at the depth of interest - I hope it will live up to your expectation. I can see you agree that it has a certain character and Les's version definitely oozes that Italian 'style'.

To respond to the points raised...

Simon - Yes it's 6082 over here too but I still think of it as the old HE30. I usually put the 6082 in brackets ::) Lovely stuff to machine particularly as, apart from the odd squirt of cutting fluid, I have to do most machining dry.

Danny M - No, it's a conventional set up - anti-clockwise. I think the image is misleading. I have several pics of original engines now all showing conventional props fitted. Incidentally while you are here - what is that lovely looking side port in your avatar?

Bill - I've not made anything from scratch smaller than 5cc however I have rebuilt and refurbished commercial engines down to 0.5cc. Given a good piston and crankcase seal there's not really that much difference though the smaller engines appear to like to be quite 'wet'. They need a faster rather than harder 'flick' to get the piston moving but apart from that not much else. Individual engines do have their own characteristics however and some can be real finger 'depleters'  ;) The main thing I like about 5cc size is that the parts are not so small and fiddly as to make work holding awkward and not so big as to make material costs unreasonable.

Jo - further checking reveals that Travagli's Super Antares is dated 1944 same date as the Atomatic 4 and Vantini's Antares engines 42 onward.  The 'Ato' 5 is dated 1947.


As hoped, swarf production got underway today but there's little to show save for two milled blocks and two bored holes. Here's a closer pic of the GA which may explain the build a bit better.

The blocks once milled weighed 368 gms - I wonder how much of that will disappear in the bin.

When I first drew this out I could not fathom why the case was cast with an integral back-plate which then had a hole in it. I decided to leave the plate out and make it a straight through bore. Something obviously fitted into the hole but it would be a while before I could make a guess based on a image on the net and one which, I'm certain, was confirmed recently on some drawings. I'm now convinced it is a crankcase pressure relief valve - no doubt intended to be used in conjunction with a timer to cut the engine on free flight models.

Bearing in mind the two blocks are primarily in case a boo boo occurs I have decided to do one as first drawn - without the integral plate - and the other as per the prototype. At this stage though major thoughts are with getting the areas around the exhaust stubs to look convincing - the rest will only follow once that has been achieved (says he hopefully).

I had an email from Sandy regarding the boiler burner and in which he comments on this engine. He wonders how the rotor disc will be kept in contact with the port face. This raises a good question and one which could be answered here.
Rear rotor discs are usually set with a small gap, usually 3-5 thou sometimes more, to prevent surface drag, the disc floating within this allowance and not being directly influenced back and forwards. Here though, even with a degree of end float on the shaft the prop thrust will always pull the rotor onto the port face unless the crankshaft forward movement is  is restricted. I have set the rotor running on the crankshaft bearing sleeve which will protrude sufficient to give the required gap - the c'shaft web bearing directly on the end face. Not exactly a large surface, and one which may wear eventually but given that this will only be run - if indeed it does - on odd occasions it will hopefully be sufficient enough.
 
Well, that's it for tonight guys - a good book beckons  ;)

Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 12:53:45 AM »
Looking forward to seeing more Ramon...the precision required must be incredible!

Bill

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2014, 02:13:40 PM »
Hi Bill, I wouldn't go so far as to say incredible but this one is going to be 'testing' that's for sure  ;)

Well Guys
All the preparatory internal machining is complete and work on the outside surfaces began this morning. Here are a few pics to cover up until then .....

First off was to bore out the case. I found this difficult to hold in the four jaw so resorted to the face plate putting some 2.5mm MDF board behind for the tool to break into.


Incidentally I don't know if this will be of use to anyone but despite having had my workshop for many years my clamping kit is, to say the least, minimalist. Along with a few small home made ones I have four of these clamps left over from the Unimat which preceded my 'first' lathe (ML10). Nice and small they are  constantly in use and allow for clamping in some tight spots. The 'packing' is a series of 25mm bar cut into varying lengths and drilled through 6.5mm and counterbored to take a 6mm caphead. This enables screwing to the facplate if desired to keep the packing  falling away and, as here, they can also be pressed into service as counterweights


All clamping, lathe or mill is done using caphead screws of various lengths from 8mm to 120mm - anything required over that then it's out with the studding.

With the case bores and those for the liners done next up was to mill out side clearance for the con-rod. This was a 'deep' hole and that long series finger mill bought for a quid 'just in case' finally saw some use.




Milling the transfer ports came next - another 'deep' and basically out of sight operation.


The small shell mill made for the Super Tigre build was pressed into service - just needing a longer shank making.




Then finally milling the exhaust ports in at 30 degrees. The position was found by indicating off the plug gauge used for boring the case pushed into the hole.


With those ops out of the way the fun(?) begins - chipping away at the outside  ;)


As said I made a start on that this morning so now I'm off to the workshop for round two - happy days  :)

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 02:42:50 PM »
Looking good so far Ramon, any reason why you did not bore one of the cases all the way through?

J

PS I still use my Unimat clamps too.

Offline Jo

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2014, 03:04:36 PM »
Watching and learning the techniques that might let me make one from a book I am looking after  :naughty:

As well as the Unimat clamps, the vice is very nice ;)

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2014, 10:00:45 PM »
When I first drew this out I could not fathom why the case was cast with an integral back-plate which then had a hole in it. I decided to leave the plate out and make it a straight through bore. Something obviously fitted into the hole but it would be a while before I could make a guess based on a image on the net and one which, I'm certain, was confirmed recently on some drawings. I'm now convinced it is a crankcase pressure relief valve - no doubt intended to be used in conjunction with a timer to cut the engine on free flight models.

Hi Jason, You must have missed this on the previous post. I drew the plate in situ on the G A but omitted it on the drawing of the case itself. Now I'm fairly certain of what that hole is for I decided to try to make one as close to prototype as possible. You can see the plate as cast on the display board image.

Jo - Like it's owner that vise is now showing it's age  ;) and is due for replacement fairly soon. I'm still prevaricating over which one to get  -  I need to keep the height as low as possible due to that low clearance on the mill.

Managed to get a good bit of roughing done this afternoon - they finished up like this


I think pics of each stage might be a bit overkill on here but there are several pics of the interim stages here -  https://picasaweb.google.com/Tug423/Atomatic5#5985134391536951474 - (if you do want them on here though you'll have to say and I'll post as often as I can)

There's a long way to go as yet but it's a start and although somewhat embryonic it's beginning to bear some semblance of what's hoped for.

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2014, 01:21:45 AM »
That looks like a lot of work to me Ramon...and nice quality work too...especially those out of sight operations...those can always be touchy!!

Bill
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 12:39:08 AM by b.lindsey »

Offline Hugh Currin

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2014, 02:11:17 AM »

(if you do want them on here though you'll have to say and I'll post as often as I can)

Regards - Ramon

Ramon:

I can only speak for myself, but I like to see the details. Both pictures and description. I pick up a lot seeing how you go about the process and looking at the set-ups. The description of why it was done a particular way is invaluable. I think that's the advantage over magazines, the space is cheap enough to put in detail. Thanks for taking us along.

If seeing the process isn't appreciated by a majority of members I'd sure like to know. I'm trying to put in what I can on another build thread.

Hugh
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 05:12:29 AM by Hugh Currin »
Hugh

Offline AussieJimG

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 03:37:56 AM »
Ramon,

Hugh said it all; I enjoy your work and the detail. Please keep it coming.

Jim

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 07:15:26 AM »
Ramon.

Keep em coming! I'm enjoying every post, and pic.  :)

David D
David.
Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!
Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Online Kim

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 07:28:16 AM »
Ditto on that!  I learn a lot from the detail!
Thanks Ramon!

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2014, 09:46:09 AM »
Hi Guys, It's me being me again - just thought that pics of most ops would be a bit much. I never gave a thought to the subsequent lack of description and as to why ::)

On that note perhaps a quick recap ....

Apart from the two faces that the front housing and back-plate screw into, as well the top and exhaust faces of course nothing on this case ends up flat. I have no real preconceived plan as to how this is all going to proceed apart from the usual approach of taking metal off cautiously bearing in mind to leave it where it needs to be but leaving sufficient in places for suitable work holding.! 

I'm visualising that the upright part of the case will be turned in part, the remainder being milled - the whole then being fettled with files and rotary burrs. Initially I'm leaving plenty on - 1mm all round ie 2mm on diameter and this will be gradually reduced as it goes.

First up had to be establishing those angle exhaust stubs
The top was dealt with first - that groove in the top face is 28mm diameter to act as a guide finished diameter is 26mm


The 30 degree angle was milled, the actual position (again leaving plenty to come off) was scaled from the drawing  :o


The side waste was milled away to 2 mm up on the major diameter around the case


Then the top portion below the stubs taken down to 28mm


Finally for this stage was to remove the waste from the front of the stubs....

...Incidentally all the milling was done by 'climb milling' By using a small cutter (6mm) and high speed the feed can be applied quite high without 'crabbing'. (2mm cut 11mm deep here) A dab of coolant was applied by brush to help prevent build up on the tool. Providing the mill is up to it I find this is a much easier way to remove metal without undue stress on the machine or cutter - I'm not recommending it - it just works for me  ;)

Which brings it back to where the last post and how they are at present


Thanks for your interest guys - I'll keep you posted of progress - now I'm off to do a bit more before getting ready for tomorrow
It's a 'plastic distraction' - first of the three shows we like to attend a year so it's a day out in Peterborough  :D It's also the first sailing race day of the season too  ::) - aghhh 'conflict' - but it is enjoyable ;) ;)

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline Roger B

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2014, 07:38:23 PM »
Looking good  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: and as the others have said please put up all the pictures, that's how we learn  :praise2:
Best regards

Roger

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: An Italian (5cc) Beauty
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2014, 09:05:16 PM »
Thanks Roger, on that note here are a few more pics from today's short session....

First off was to mill the relief under the stubs


Then bring the top section down to 28mm 'square'


A bit more of the lower half was got rid of - nothing 'scientific' just milling to a eyeballed scribed line


And at last they are ready to start bringing to section


The 'feet' haven't been left on for a specific purpose - just being left at this stage in case they should 'come in handy'.

Next up is to make an expanding mandrel and begin the early stage of some of the finishing but that won't be until Monday I guess - and there's time to be given to the boiler next week too  ;)

That's it for this stage then - thanks for all your interest.

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

 

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