Author Topic: Hall Sensors  (Read 11344 times)

Offline Mosey

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Hall Sensors
« on: January 17, 2014, 11:21:44 PM »
I have a new ignition system based on Jerry Howell's TIM-6 model, and it failed quickly after initial testing. I suspect the Hall Sensor or the Transister is at fault. I have tested the Transister, and would like to now test the Hall. Does anyone know a simple multimeter test for these components to check it?
Mosey :headscratch:

Offline stevehuckss396

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2014, 11:30:43 PM »
I have a new ignition system based on Jerry Howell's TIM-6 model, and it failed quickly after initial testing. I suspect the Hall Sensor or the Transister is at fault. I have tested the Transister, and would like to now test the Hall. Does anyone know a simple multimeter test for these components to check it?
Mosey :headscratch:


As the magnet gets waved over the sensor the output lead should go between 0 and system voltage.
Do not be like the cat who wanted a fish but was afraid to get his paws wet.

Offline Don1966

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2014, 11:59:00 PM »
Mosey, disconnect the positive lead from the Hall device and momentary short out the other two leads. This should trigger the TM6 board. The board can be used for Hall Device or points. Just simulate the points to test the board. Then if the board works you know your Hall device is bad.
You can also test the Hall sensor by putting one lead of the meter to controlled lead of the Hall Sensor and one to the negative lead. Connect one side of a 10k or simulator resistor to the positive power lead and the other lead to the Hall Sensor positive lead. Make sure the negative lead in connected to the Hall Sensor, Pass the magnet in front of it and the voltage should turn on and off.

Don
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 12:07:35 AM by Don1966 »

Offline Mosey

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 12:04:39 AM »
Thank you, gentlemen, the check is in the mail.
Mosey
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Offline gbritnell

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2014, 02:50:55 AM »
Hi Mosey,
I can't add any more to what's been explained but I do have some other bits of information that might be helpful.
When I got started with electronic ignitions one of the first ones I used was made by a fellow on the west coast, a TIM-3. I apologize as I have forgotten his name. The next one I purchased was a TIM-6 from Jerry Howell. Being somewhat handy with a soldering iron I bought the kit and assembled it myself. With it I bought the twin fire coil which is no longer available. I have been using this setup for years with no problems. Through the years Jerry (when he was alive) updated this ignition and over that time I bought several more but with the coils that were then available. That's when I started having a problem. The problem was the ignition would burn out and being that the ignition was the same over the years I suspected the new coils. I contacted Allan Howell, Jerry's son and told him of my findings and the situation. He had just taken over the business and said he wasn't really knowledgeable about the ignitions but if I was having trouble with the coil he would replace it, which he did. Try exchanging or returning electrical components! With the new coil I hooked up my ignitions, one by one and found that they were still heating more than my old original one. At this point I didn't know what to do, and still don't. I have 2 Jerry Howell ignitions that work flawlessly and 2 S&S ignitions that also work fine but I also have 3 other Howell's that will only work with my original coil.
I did have Hall problems early on but since I am religious about making sure I have a good ground before firing up my engines I haven't had any burnouts in years.
Where am I going with all this information, once you know you have a good Hall use your ignition but check the components on the board for overheating. Either the large diode gets hot or the switching transistor. The ignition will work when first started up but then the spark gets weaker and weaker as it gets hot and then quits making sparks.
gbritnell
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Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2014, 12:09:00 PM »
Ignition coils should be matched for current, voltage and rpm. What do I mean with that statement ?

All coils have a reluctance to change the current through them, this is the inductance, measured in Henry's and a saturation current / magnetic saturation. In a perfect world (almost all never ECU's in cars and motorcycles) you want to stop the current exactly when it reaches the saturation point and therefore the ECU calculates the exact point in time where it starts the current. This is fine, but your simple circuits can't do that, so the best way to solve the problem, is to do what was used in racing engines before the modern ECU => add a power resistor in series with the primary on the ignition coil. Value between 0.5 and 3 Ohms should do the trick - minimum 5 Watts (10-50W model in metal house would be perfect), if not, you have a mitch matched coil. This resistor also protects the power transistor / MosFet that's used instead of points (the resistor works with points too).

So in Georges case - leave those combinations that works without being too hot alone and experiment with a resistor in those combinations that gets too hot.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 12:13:29 PM by Admiral_dk »

Offline cfellows

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2014, 07:31:04 PM »
Since I am about to go down this path as well, using the S/S engineering ignition systems, coil included, I have a couple of questions.

First of all, how do you determine which of the poles on the magnet is the south pole?  I've read that the earth's north pole is actually a south magnetic pole which is why it attracts the north pole of a compass.  So, does that mean that I would use the magnet's pole which is attracted to the north pole of a compass?

Also, what are the precautions I need to take to not burn out the hall effect sensor when I first test it and/or install it?

Chuck
So many projects, so little time...

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2014, 07:52:51 PM »
The other option is to have different coils wound. I have just taken delivery of some prototype low tension coils from Minimag for evaluation, all have different windings which will affect current and Henrys. Will report how they perform in a few weeks. Julian could also wind you HT coils to your spec.

Offline Don1966

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2014, 08:00:44 PM »
Since I am about to go down this path as well, using the S/S engineering ignition systems, coil included, I have a couple of questions.

First of all, how do you determine which of the poles on the magnet is the south pole?  I've read that the earth's north pole is actually a south magnetic pole which is why it attracts the north pole of a compass.  So, does that mean that I would use the magnet's pole which is attracted to the north pole of a compass?

Also, what are the precautions I need to take to not burn out the hall effect sensor when I first test it and/or install it?

Chuck

Chuck just pass the magnetic across the face of the hall device to see if it triggers. If it doesn't try the opposite side. Try to limit your current to no more than 20MA, you shouldn't need more then that to trigger a circuit.

Don

Jason did you get Julian's  Start up box? It is quiet simple to put together and great to test your Hall sensors with.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2014, 08:05:18 PM »
Not this time as those coils are for an engine with an ignitor so no Hall sensor or points needed.

J

Offline derekwarner

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 08:18:15 PM »
Chuck....another option is to use a pre-stamped pole piece...very inexpensive...we use them as installation aids/tools which attracted the opposite pole in small rare earth magnets when the latter were being installed into transducer magnet rings....

Initially we found these rings very difficult to manufacture as each of the 4 diameter x 4 long REM's after being inserted in the magnet ring holes would naturally jump out of the hole & attract upside down to an opposite mate

A number of transducer rings failed on test........it was then we discovered a number of REM pole pieces had flipped  :lolb:

So the pre stamped pole piece was also used as a final checking device for polarity...... :happyreader:...Derek



Derek
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 08:25:00 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
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Offline Rustkolector

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 09:46:01 PM »
Chuck,
Easy way to determine south pole of magnet is to put it near a compass. The compass north will point to the south pole of the  magnet.

Jeff

Offline tvoght

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2014, 10:16:48 PM »
I was able to mark a small bar magnet by placing it on a piece of waxed paper and gently laying it down to float on the surface of a bowl of water. The north pole sought north and the magnet was marked accordingly.

--Tim

Offline stevehuckss396

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2014, 10:27:14 PM »
Since I am about to go down this path as well, using the S/S engineering ignition systems, coil included, I have a couple of questions.

First of all, how do you determine which of the poles on the magnet is the south pole?

Also, what are the precautions I need to take to not burn out the hall effect sensor when I first test it and/or install it?


First question. wire up the ignition to a sparkplug on the bench and then wave the magnet over the sensor to find out what side fires the plug. Done.

Best money spent is to put a heavy ground wire (#14) right from the low voltage side of the coil to the engine block. Bolt the wire to the block with a nice clean connection and the proper terminal. I glue the sensor right down to a metal surface and get years out of them.
Do not be like the cat who wanted a fish but was afraid to get his paws wet.

Offline Mosey

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Re: Hall Sensors
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2014, 10:43:55 PM »
I plan to buy a cheap magnetic Scotty dog in the toy store to find the North of my magnets, as I tend to lose track.
Mosey
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 10:51:08 PM by Mosey »