Author Topic: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale  (Read 233752 times)

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #615 on: July 07, 2016, 01:49:12 PM »
Hi Derek, Dave, thanks for your continued interest in my 'knock'  :)

I'm afraid I can't quite remember what I had for 'breaky' this morning so whether I had my eyes closed is not confirmable  :ShakeHead:

I can't slow the video down either so that's that one out too  ::) I have however very carefully turned this engine over this morning and there is absolutely no for and aft movement of the crankshaft so I'm content that it does not emanate from that area. I'm still convinced it emanates from the big end bearings so my plan is to make new big ends anyway, (I confess I used the previous ones due to idleness on my part and the desire to quicken progress - obviously a wrong decision ::)) take a look at the lower centre bearing and absolutely check the piston clearance.  I'll obviously report back once all that's done - we'll just have to see how it pans out.

I think that about covers it - I'm off now to finish the regulator

Oh yes, the music was Corelli - one of 6 Concerti Grossi.

Regards for now and thanks again for your input - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline fumopuc

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #616 on: July 07, 2016, 08:09:47 PM »
Hi Ramon, a very smooth runner, it is a pleasure to watch the motion
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #617 on: July 07, 2016, 08:29:29 PM »
Hi Ramon

I also have a few ideas on how to locate the over-clearance:
To find out which cylinder it comes from, you can disconnect the valve rod from the excentric. Then you lock the crankshaft (by clamping a piece of wood on the front surface of the flywheel).
If you now supply only one of the cylinders with pressurized air, you can actuate the valve gear by hand and see if there is any sound. You may test at different positions of the crankshaft, at the dead centres, when the crankshaft is 90° to the dead centre and also 45° from the dead centres.

This way you should be able to find out if it is one of the piston rod bearings (or the pistons themselves). And also which piston rod then causes the "knock".
You may also use a dial indicator when changing load on the bearings (when you actuate the valve by hand), measuring the crankshaft, the piston rod, crosshead (vertical and sideways!!)

Cheers Florian

Offline Maryak

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #618 on: July 07, 2016, 11:41:04 PM »
IMHO, definitely in the LP, appears to be too "hard" for a big end, (would be as loose as all get out), although also appears to happen twice in a cycle. Don maybe on the right track.

Regards
Bob
Если вы у Тетушки были яйца, она была бы Дядюшкой

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #619 on: July 08, 2016, 08:40:51 AM »
Thanks Achim, Florian and Bob, your  comments and input are appreciated and noted  ;)

Bob, if you are referring to an LP cylinder,  it's not a compound- both are the same size. If not, what do you mean by 'LP'

Regards - Ramon

"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #620 on: July 08, 2016, 12:05:35 PM »
Hi Ramon

I also have a few ideas on how to locate the over-clearance:
To find out which cylinder it comes from, you can disconnect the valve rod from the excentric. Then you lock the crankshaft (by clamping a piece of wood on the front surface of the flywheel).
If you now supply only one of the cylinders with pressurized air, you can actuate the valve gear by hand and see if there is any sound. You may test at different positions of the crankshaft, at the dead centres, when the crankshaft is 90° to the dead centre and also 45° from the dead centres.

This way you should be able to find out if it is one of the piston rod bearings (or the pistons themselves). And also which piston rod then causes the "knock".
You may also use a dial indicator when changing load on the bearings (when you actuate the valve by hand), measuring the crankshaft, the piston rod, crosshead (vertical and sideways!!)

Cheers Florian

Florian,

I have thought about your suggestions over the last 24 hours on finding the knock when Ramon's engine is running but for the life of me I can't figure out your theory.
Yes you can disengage the valve rod from the quadrant and operate by hand but as the knock comes when the engine is running how can you find it when you have locked the main shaft ?

George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Florian Eberhard

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #621 on: July 08, 2016, 12:40:47 PM »
Hi George

Well, if the source for that knock is a change of load, it should also happen when the crankshaft does not turn.
And by checking at different positions of the crankshaft, you should be able to locate the problem - or at least to find out which cylinder is the cause of that noise.
If there is no sound when the engine is not running, then I can't imagine any reason for that sound (at least right now, when I don't have the engine in front of me)

Florian

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #622 on: July 08, 2016, 09:13:20 PM »
Hi George

Well, if the source for that knock is a change of load, it should also happen when the crankshaft does not turn.
And by checking at different positions of the crankshaft, you should be able to locate the problem - or at least to find out which cylinder is the cause of that noise.
If there is no sound when the engine is not running, then I can't imagine any reason for that sound (at least right now, when I don't have the engine in front of me)

Florian

Hi Florian,
Thanks for that, I have never considerd your method but shall take it on board and could use it in the future.
I see what you mean and if there was any wear in the bearings or the big ends the minute movement could be found with your method.

Regards
George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Maryak

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #623 on: July 09, 2016, 01:27:21 AM »

Bob, if you are referring to an LP cylinder,  it's not a compound- both are the same size. If not, what do you mean by 'LP'

Regards - Ramon

Ah the joys of old age, approaching blindness and a lack of perspective! OK, I mean the cylinder and associated bits nearer to; the camera or put another way, me as the viewer, (flywheel end).

Regards
Bob
Если вы у Тетушки были яйца, она была бы Дядюшкой

Offline Rustkolector

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #624 on: July 09, 2016, 05:33:05 AM »
Ramon,
Just an observation of mine, but  I have heard that knock before. It is in a Rudy's twin compound that I built many years ago. I never spent much time looking for it as I had no intended use for the engine. I have also heard it in quite a few other twin cylinder steam engines at shows running on air. They all had reversing linkage. I have never heard the knock in twins without reverse. I'd try the heavy oil idea.

Jeff

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #625 on: July 10, 2016, 01:48:06 PM »
Ah the joys of old age, approaching blindness and a lack of perspective! OK, I mean the cylinder and associated bits nearer to; the camera or put another way, me as the viewer, (flywheel end).

Ah Bob - tell me about it  :old: definitely getting that way by the day  ::)

Jeff - thanks for you thoughts. The reversing gear has very little slop it it and works very smoothly as you can see in the video. However this knock does sound as if something is hitting rather than a loose part as Don first suggested but I simply can't find any evidence of that.

I'm working on the pumps at the moment - hand pump is done and plumbed, now about to start the mechanical one. Once that is done I'll strip the engine and make new bearings and start from there.

Many thanks again

Regards - Ramon

"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline Rustkolector

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #626 on: July 10, 2016, 05:38:47 PM »
Ramon,
The heavy weight oil idea is a good one for chasing down noises. I can confirm from experience that 90 wt gear oil will silence a loose fitting bearing or linkage, at least for awhile. It is more expedient to find and then fix the specific noisemaker. Also, the fine grade Timesaver non embedding lapping compound makes a very nice fitting and smooth running bearing.

Jeff

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #627 on: July 10, 2016, 06:31:39 PM »
Hi Jeff -
Yes, agreed, I would much rather trace the source and fix it but it's going to have to wait a bit at the mo. I don't have any heavy oil other than steam oil to see - I guess I could try that but I'm set on new ones now. Re the Timesaver - 'I wish' - I  am aware of it's attributes and looked in to getting some previously but the expenditure for the minimum that can be bought isn't really justifiable now, particularly when half a teaspoonful would probably 'see me out'   ;)

Thanks for the thought though  ;)

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline crueby

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #628 on: July 10, 2016, 08:09:57 PM »
Hi Jeff -
Yes, agreed, I would much rather trace the source and fix it but it's going to have to wait a bit at the mo. I don't have any heavy oil other than steam oil to see - I guess I could try that but I'm set on new ones now. Re the Timesaver - 'I wish' - I  am aware of it's attributes and looked in to getting some previously but the expenditure for the minimum that can be bought isn't really justifiable now, particularly when half a teaspoonful would probably 'see me out'   ;)

Thanks for the thought though  ;)

Regards - Ramon
I bought thier sampler pack, a small tin of each grit in one box. Much cheaper, still all I'll ever need unless I spill it. Or sneeze while tin is open.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #629 on: July 15, 2016, 09:58:20 PM »
Hi Guys - just in case y'all thought I'd snuck off back to the plastic here's a short update  :).

Progress is ongoing and both pumps and the throttle are now made along with the drive shaft support. The throttle works well on air but how it will perform on steam remains to be seen - it's a stainless barrel in a bronze outer.
The engine driven pump is new, fabricated from gunmetal ('cast bronze') bar with the base and the support out of brass. The 6mm ram was turned from stainless and fitted with two O rings. I'm not sure how well it will perform without a guide though.


The drive support was milled from a block of ali, line drilled on the mill without any alignment problems. Reducing that expensive worm was a mite anxiety inducing but machined with ease - with a 'minimal width' parting tool I even managed to save the off-cut for a spare  :D


Doesn't seem like much but here's the result of a couple of weeks worth input. The hand pump was made many years back but still worked fine - I used it in fact to pressure test the gas tank to 300 psi as it had a small 6mm bore. It was stripped and re-bored to 8mm and a new ram made, again fitted with an O ring. The keen eyed will no doubt see it needs a new pin for the wider shaft  ;)


Busy weekend ahead so not likely to see the workshop till Monday - just the conrod for the pump to make and bolt it all in situ for a test then it's get to grips with those new bearings and locate that knock.

'See you soon' with a further update - thanks for looking in

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

 

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