Author Topic: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale  (Read 233879 times)

Offline steamer

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #585 on: May 24, 2016, 01:16:03 PM »
Excellent work Ramon!!!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Johno

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #586 on: May 24, 2016, 06:58:46 PM »
Ramon,

What lovely work!

Really liked the use of employing a fixture to get pipework lengths right, such a simple and elegant solution to something that I have had difficulty with. It's the sharing of such things that is of great value when being a part of the "community".

Ian   

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #587 on: May 24, 2016, 09:10:30 PM »
Hello Guys - many thanks indeed for all your kind comments and remarks - all much appreciated I assure you  :)

With regard to the number of bolts on the steam chest and head, yes, it was my hope that it would look more scale like however I have to totally concur with my friend George in that they are a bit on the 'heavy side'. However the number per side was based on them not clashing with other holes so 4 x 3 was out I'm afraid George. They are 7BA - the smallest stud that EKP does but in hindsight they would have been much better had they have been 8BA with 9BA size nuts (Thanks for the suggestion but they are 8BA nuts already  ::)). I've been considering resizing the ends of the studs to 8BA - not sure how that will work out visually but I'll see.

Thanks for your input on the 'de-oiler' Derek - as you see George has provided a drawing and I owe Sandy an email so must contact him sooner rather than later. I'm not so sure I can go to 1/10 - it's a biggish boiler and theres little room for anything that size but I'll try to get it as large as I can. I fear it may have to be horizontal and lay beside the boiler to get maximum volume. Thanks too for your kind offer of the pump casting this evening George - I'll reply later.  I wasn't sure about lagging the exhaust but will take your advice Derek - :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for the pic Kerrin - it reminds me I have yet to make the gratings   ;)

DTR - although it's just a few words my thanks for taking the time to post. It's always good to hear from a 'new face' and likewise you too Ian. I'm very pleased to think you have gained something and it's even more pleasing to hear so.

Well guys I've spent the day having a major clean up of the workshop. It will be about four or five weeks before I can get back onto the final leg so in the meantime enjoy your modelling too - what ever direction it takes you in.

'See you soon'

Kind regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #588 on: May 25, 2016, 08:17:45 AM »
Hi Ramon,

Regarding the bolt fixings on the steam chests, I would leave them as they are, I can see that if they were 4- up and 3- across they would clash with the weigh shaft bracket and the valve rod in the centre.  It would probably matter to a die hard Stuart enthusiest but as your engine is  non standard based on the "D10".
The Stuart weigh shaft brackets ar bolted on to the face of the steam chest cover and need to be bolted up with packers when the cover is removed to allow valve adjustment, where your brackets are is a much better idea as the brackets need not be removed for adjusting the valve settings.

You will not need a large tank for the oil seperator as the slide valve engine with the needle control on the Lubricator you can finely control the oil to the engine and if you don't have the ability to heat the boiler feed water you can incorporate a coil as prer my drawing by winding 5/32" copper pipe around a 3/4" dia rod which allows you to fit it into a 1.25" bore copper pipe and arrange the inlet and out let  for a horizontal unit.
The need for a 1/10 size tank occures when you use a straight thro' lubricator without any means of controlling the oil to the engine, most steam plants with  Oscillating engines are fitted with lubricators that don't have a needle to control the oil flow to the engine hence this gulping effect and too much oil is used.

George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #589 on: May 25, 2016, 10:04:41 AM »
Hello George - thanks for your input here  :ThumbsUp:

I am in the dark as far as this oil separator is concerned having never used one before. My thinking about using one has been based purely on concern of not putting oil and steam up the funnel and polluting the pond water.

The set up I have (so far) is to bring cold water from the tanks straight to the pumps and then send it through a coil set inside the rear of the flue tube (economiser?) before entering the boiler. I have always been under the impression (perhaps misguided) that pumps work best if the water is cold. I take it from what you are saying that it would be a good idea to pre heat it as you suggest via the separator before it gets to the pumps?

Given the action of this separator how much does it act as a condenser as I'm thinking it would have to be of reasonable volume to cater for condensate as well? I can see if it's a horizontal one that the off take would need to be set in some kind of dome as movement of the condensate could easily cover the outlet at times with the motion of the boat.

It looks like I'm going to have to add making some valves to the 'to do' list too  :D

Thanks again,
Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #590 on: May 25, 2016, 11:01:49 AM »
Ramon,
As you already have an economiser ( feed water heater ) built into your boiler  you don't need the coil as shown on my sketch, if you had to use my drawing you would bring the cold water from your tank or from the lake to the pump and then into the coil with the exhaust being used to heat the water..

All that you need to do is make an tank from a copper tube and if vertical take your exhaust steam into the tank at a tangent and the steam will condense with the oil dropping to the bottom of the tank which can be pumped out at the end of your run by blocking off the steam to the funnel and the engine exhaust will pump out the residue oil.

I keep stressing that your engine having a slide valve and an on line lubricator with a needle valve you only need a minimum of oil to the engine by adjusting the needle valve on your lubricator,
the residue pumped out should be a milky colour with very little oil droplets in it, if there is a lot of oil you are using too much , the needle valve only needs to be openned a crack.
I have seen many models with the residue  more or less straight oil and this mainly is in Oscillation engines with a lubricator that doesn't have a needle control valve.

George.

Your never too old to learn.

Online Jo

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #591 on: May 25, 2016, 11:24:35 AM »
I can confirm that the feed water heater on my Clayton acts a very effective condenser   :(

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #592 on: May 25, 2016, 06:47:22 PM »
Hi again George - thanks for that  :ThumbsUp:

I take on board what you are saying about the oil and will monitor it closely when the time comes (which is not too long now ;))

I'm not quite sure which mode to go for (vertical or horizontal) - I'll wait until I get the engine and boiler back in the boat to see what suits it best - there's not much room for either without spoiling the looks though.

Thanks Jo - I'll bear that in mind

Regards - Ramon

"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline joe d

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #593 on: May 25, 2016, 08:11:48 PM »
Ramon

Still following along, and much enjoying it!

Joe

Offline derekwarner

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #594 on: May 26, 2016, 12:02:41 AM »
Ramon.....I acknowledge we have been down the path that fixed orifice lubricators may consume more oil than is necessary, however somewhere we need to balance the understanding that the engine is getting sufficient oil

As a trade off, I have chosen a quartz tubed lubricator [fixed orifice] which clearly provides a visual on the oil to condensate level at a glance. They are now also available with the metering adjustment ..............

The image below is filled with Grade 460 steam oil which looks like pea soup, however the morning sunlight changes that.........

PS......I have had the displeasure of seeing the internals of a 5" gauge seized steam engine :Mad:, yes ...due to insufficient lubrication

Derek
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:12:23 PM by derekwarner_decoy »
Derek L Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op - Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #595 on: May 26, 2016, 09:04:25 AM »
Hi guys - nice to hear from you Joe - glad you are enjoying the journey  ;)

That's a very nice little lubricator you have there Derek - I have wondered whether to go to something similar and try to make one but it's yet one more thing to make and time is pressing.

Unlike yourself and George I don't have a great deal of experience in running engines on steam other than my old Twin Victoria set up. That ran at shows  (about three per year) for something like twelve years without a lubricator. I would just inject a good slug of steam oil in the manifold (where a lubricator was intended to go) and let it run. I found I would need to do that about three times throughout the day. Not ideal perhaps but it did work. The first time I ran it on steam I just cleaned it down and left it only to find it the next time some months later that it was very stiff to turn over. Stripped down revealed rusty cylinders to blame but they cleaned up well enough. This had bronze pistons - I can't remember whether it had PTFE or graphite yarn packing. From that point on once home at the end of the day the engine would be run on air with more injected steam oil to displace any condensate and hopefully coat the internals. Again maybe not ideal but it did work as the problem never occurred again. Finally, after about ten years I gave up running on steam as it demanded too much attention throughout the day - running it on air was much more relaxing and allowed more time to enjoy what else was going on. I would still inject a slug of steam oil and still to this day do the same with the Waller and Double Diagonal - never ever had any cylinder problems with those either - again cast iron cylinders with bronze pistons but with PTFE packing.

The Double 10 of course will get a good working so lubrication is obviously going to have to be more controlled - I confess my interest in running it on an ongoing basis doesn't have the appeal it once did and if that continues it may not see much (regular) water time but I agree it's a detail that does require proper consideration.

As always thanks for your interest - I do appreciate this kind of observation and input from both of you  :)

I'm off out now to show the engine to my good friend Gordon who's unable to get over here these days as well as a chance to visit my old works which is close by - even more  :).

Kind regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #596 on: May 26, 2016, 12:14:00 PM »
Hi Ramon,
The online lubricator  made by Stuart is sufficient for your engine, these lubricators have been made and recommended by Stuart ever since Mr Stuart Turner formed the company way back in the year dot.
Myself and other club members have used these lubricators since we started on steam powered model boats and and to date in Scotland and many steam boat rallys down south we have never come across a seized engine due to lack of oil but have sean many occasions of the over use of steam oil.

These lubricators can be tucked away into the side of the engine and as you will find that space will be at a premiun in a steam plant installed in a model boat.
The only thing that you may have to do as the Lubricator is so near the engine is to fit Ali washers between the Lubricator and the engine manifold to act as heat sinks to allow the steam in the lubricator to condence and then push the oil into the engine by the displacement action of the steam condencing to water and displacing the oil.

The type of lubricator that Derek has shown is primarily for Loco's  and Derek I am sure that you will find when you build a boat and install your steam plant that you may run out of space, that is if you ever get around to building a boat !!!!!!!

Ramon stick to the Stuart lubricator it will do the job admirably and always remember that you will get different results running on the bench with steam when the engine is not working than you will get in the water under load.

George
Your never too old to learn.

Offline steamer

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #597 on: May 26, 2016, 01:46:27 PM »
Hi guys - nice to hear from you Joe - glad you are enjoying the journey  ;)

That's a very nice little lubricator you have there Derek - I have wondered whether to go to something similar and try to make one but it's yet one more thing to make and time is pressing.

Unlike yourself and George I don't have a great deal of experience in running engines on steam other than my old Twin Victoria set up. That ran at shows  (about three per year) for something like twelve years without a lubricator. I would just inject a good slug of steam oil in the manifold (where a lubricator was intended to go) and let it run. I found I would need to do that about three times throughout the day. Not ideal perhaps but it did work. The first time I ran it on steam I just cleaned it down and left it only to find it the next time some months later that it was very stiff to turn over. Stripped down revealed rusty cylinders to blame but they cleaned up well enough. This had bronze pistons - I can't remember whether it had PTFE or graphite yarn packing. From that point on once home at the end of the day the engine would be run on air with more injected steam oil to displace any condensate and hopefully coat the internals. Again maybe not ideal but it did work as the problem never occurred again. Finally, after about ten years I gave up running on steam as it demanded too much attention throughout the day - running it on air was much more relaxing and allowed more time to enjoy what else was going on. I would still inject a slug of steam oil and still to this day do the same with the Waller and Double Diagonal - never ever had any cylinder problems with those either - again cast iron cylinders with bronze pistons but with PTFE packing.

The Double 10 of course will get a good working so lubrication is obviously going to have to be more controlled - I confess my interest in running it on an ongoing basis doesn't have the appeal it once did and if that continues it may not see much (regular) water time but I agree it's a detail that does require proper consideration.

As always thanks for your interest - I do appreciate this kind of observation and input from both of you  :)

I'm off out now to show the engine to my good friend Gordon who's unable to get over here these days as well as a chance to visit my old works which is close by - even more  :).

Kind regards - Ramon

Hi Ramon,  a small displacement lubricator will work very well.   These engines aren't pushed too hard, and I suspect you will be running saturated steam, so the internal lubrication requirements aren't terribly stringent.   A little dab will do you.

Sabino's 75 HP compound running 15 hours a day got three squirts from the oil can into the HP condensate valve a day.  That is the extent of internal lubrication.      Cylinders and Pistons look like glass at the end of the running season.

A slide valve engine will require a bit more lubrication....
 

Dave
« Last Edit: May 26, 2016, 01:54:46 PM by steamer »
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #598 on: May 26, 2016, 08:36:24 PM »
Hi Dave,
Your post today gives a mention of "Sabino's " 75 H.P. engine which rang a bell in my old gray matter about a model build of a "Sabino " boat and I have found this on ModelBoatMayhem ( http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,46169.0.html ) .
Did you know about this ?
Any connection by you ?

Have a read at the build, it's very interesting.

I totally agree with you on the amount of oil used in a steam engine as to how little it needs.

There has been several questions over the years asking what can be done about the amount of oil carried over in the exhaust and into the container and can it be reused.
These questions have always had the reply of " you are using too much oil " and when asked what type of engine the answer has been " it's an Oscillating engine.
On further questioning it's been found that they have been using a straight thro' lubricator without a control needle to metre the oil and the engine has taking a gulps of oil and emptied the lubricator but the engine still ran as they were running on wet steam from the boiler.

George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline steamer

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #599 on: May 26, 2016, 08:39:53 PM »
Sorry George....I only worked on the 12" to the foot one,   not the model.

But I'll read up!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

 

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