Author Topic: Hasbrouck #7 Double Size. (Read 16567 times)

VANYA · « **on:** March 24, 2013, 08:27:24 PM »

Hi.

I am new to this forum but want to ask if the Hasbrouck #7 steam engine can be constructed at 2 or 3X the original model size so as to make it suitable for a small ( 11 or 12 foot two person ) live steamboat.

I need a 1HP engine, bigger than a Stuart #4 but smaller than ST 5A.

I do not have the boiler yet or the hull. I just want it very simple setup and not too heavy. I am not interested in passenger hauling but making wood or coal into steam propulsion.

Can a Hasbrouck 7 be easily made with it supposedly simple fwd/reverse method.

I welcome any input from engine builders with previous knowledge of this engine.

Thank you.

steamer · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2013, 08:33:27 PM »

Hey Vanya,

Why not drop the bore on a number 10 ? A single will take up less cockpit space than a double.

Additionally, I would recommend nothing smaller than 20 feet for a steamboat. The powerplant just takes up too much space.

My 25 footer is just big enough for me and my family.

A number 10 in a 20 footer would be great!

Dave

steamer · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2013, 08:40:58 PM »

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,249.0.html

VANYA · « **Reply #3 on:** March 25, 2013, 01:20:21 AM »

Steamer.

I thank you for your comments.

The intention of this first project can be thought of along the lines of a steam canoe, rather than an lake cruising boat or offshore big steam boat.

I have the castings for a 5A to hand, a pair in fact for a twin swan but this is too big for what I am intending. I do not want a large trailerable steam boat just yet and just want a small engine and boiler system to propel a simple boat at 3-4 mph up a still meandering waterway or around the edge of a lake. You could liken it is a small 3 1/2 inch or small tank engine loco hauling one passenger in model railway terms.

This being the first introduction to building an engine and boat, the boiler will be made by a professional but the rest I want to experience myself. I have the machinery, lathes and mill for cutting metal and the plans for a Hasbrouck #10 so I see what the big engine is like. My friend has one complete and at present I am not going there, it and the boat are too big.

I just need to know if the Hasbrouck #7 can be scaled up or the #10 scaled down.

Are there any other 1-1.5 HP engine designs out there which might be an option??

Regards

VANYA

steamer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 25, 2013, 01:46:04 AM »

The short answer is yes they can Vanya...

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #5 on:** March 25, 2013, 02:06:50 AM »

Thanks,

That sounds promising.

Do you know much about the Hasbrouck #7 with that version of reversing.

I have ordered the #7drawings from Ron Ginger anyway, whether I build the engine or not, and at whatever size so maybe a forum member may have some knowledge of it. I know it may not be as popular as the bigger # 10 but if it works it is good.

Thank you for your immediate response, much appreciated.

VANYA

steamer · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2013, 02:53:03 AM »

If you doubled that engine, it would probably work...any bigger, and I'd say go for the Hasbrouck 5.

Dave

RonGinger · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2013, 12:00:46 PM »

#7 is a nice little engine for a model boat. I have one almost finished, but its been almost finished for 3 or 4 years now. In fact I started it while Ray was still alive and he sent me an extra cylinder block he had made.

I do not think it would be suitable for scaling up to a real working engine. The piston valve part ought to be fine, but I would not do the port reversing as in the model. Some external valves might work.

But as Dave said, I think #5 is my favorite engine for a small launch, with #10 second choice if you want only 1 cylinder. However, a lot of guys seem to like the #8 V-twin. To me V engines are IC, not steam, but thats just my view. Any of these were designed by Ray to power boats, and many dozens (hundreds?) have been built over the years and proven to work. You are going to put a lot of time and money into a project like this, and unless you have the experience to design it right you may be in for a disappointment, Follow some good plans for your first boat, then later maybe design your own.

I also support Daves words about bigger boats- I built a 17ft with a #5 and it was way to small to be fun to use. (Maybe I was a bit to big) But think about sitting in the 'drivers' position, and trying to reach all the things like valves, pump handles, wood supply etc, and keeping hot things, like valves and pipes off your knees and arms. It just was not fun.

VANYA · « **Reply #8 on:** March 25, 2013, 06:44:17 PM »

Ron.

Thank you and take on board what you have said.

I have ordered the #7 drawing set anyway from you and in time will have fun making a little engine and expanding my skills.

I have read about a 1/2 size #5 build so will take a look at that as a place to start.

Can you tell me please, is there a formula for estimatimg the power output of a steam engine based on its physical dimensions and design, eg Bore, Stroke etc. I guess mathematically if you make a half size version of say a #10 it is not likely to be just half the output. Would I be correct there??

Lots to learn for me.

VANYA,

New Zealand

steamer · « **Reply #9 on:** March 25, 2013, 07:57:16 PM »

Quote from: VANYA on March 25, 2013, 06:44:17 PM

Ron.

Thank you and take on board what you have said.

I have ordered the #7 drawing set anyway from you and in time will have fun making a little engine and expanding my skills.

I have read about a 1/2 size #5 build so will take a look at that as a place to start.

Can you tell me please, is there a formula for estimatimg the power output of a steam engine based on its physical dimensions and design, eg Bore, Stroke etc. I guess mathematically if you make a half size version of say a #10 it is not likely to be just half the output. Would I be correct there??

Lots to learn for me.

VANYA,

New Zealand

Yes....half size is not half the power...

IHP = PLAN/33000

P= MEP in psi
L=stroke ( in feet)
A= Piston area....becareful....if it's double acting! ( in square inches)
N= RPM

P for all intents and purposes will be the same regardless.
If we say....a #10 is 2 INDICATED Horsepower....solve for P

(2.0 /(2* (3/12 x (3.14159*(2.25**2)/4) x 400)*33000)= 83 psi with a boiler pressure of 125...that sounds about right if your pipes are good sized

Now you have a stake in the ground for MEP. Mess with the bore and stroke to get 1 HP = 33000 ft lbs/min

You will find it is not half....

In Round numbers.....a 2 x 2.25 single, double acting...so not that much smaller than a #10.

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:39:17 PM »

I thought it might be like Quantum mechanical theory.

And they did the calculations way back when without Mr IBM.

This is interesting stuff.

Is there a good internet site that goes into this sort of stuff, the mathematical theory, or is it in the books of old??

Thanks.

steamer · « **Reply #11 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:57:34 PM »

"The Thermodynamics of the Steam Engine" by Peabody....do a google book search...

Dave

steamer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 25, 2013, 08:58:17 PM »

Quote from: VANYA on March 25, 2013, 08:39:17 PM

I thought it might be like Quantum mechanical theory.
.

Nope...just basic Mechanical Engineering......

mklotz · « **Reply #13 on:** March 25, 2013, 09:00:52 PM »

It's straight-forward freshman physics...

power = energy / time = energy per stroke * strokes per minute = stroke energy * rpm
energy = force * distance = piston force * stroke
force = pressure * piston area

power = pressure * area * stroke * rpm

The 33000 arises from the use of the Inferial system of measurement. [1 hp = 33000 ft-lbf/min]

In double-acting engines the effective area of the piston on the return stroke is reduced by the area of the connecting rod.

My STEAMHP program will do the calculations for you if you're intimidated by the arithmetic.

steamer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 25, 2013, 09:03:34 PM »

To say nothing of making sure your valve cut off is appropriate for the engine...as that affects MEP.

If you have Ray's drawings, the timing is easily determined. I would suggest using the same cut-off's he used for a marine application.

Nice Program Marv!

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #15 on:** March 25, 2013, 10:34:33 PM »

I can to the mathematics but just have to get the brain around how it all fits together and the interaction between all the components etc.

Steam is different to electrical theory and what I have come across in other hobbies. That is why I want to build an engine rather than just buy one off ebay or the like. The learning is in the doing and that in my opinion is why young people do not even know how things work these days.

I am here to learn from you and thank you all for your help and input.

Is it easier to work backwards, that is from the propeller back to wards what engine needs to drive it, what approx hull speed we want to acheive and then the boiler size to supply the steam??

Does anyone know the HP output of the Stuart #4 ??

Am I doing this project the correct way ??

I know from my correspondance with a steam canoe builder that the Stuart #4 is a marginal engine for his application considering the slighly larger boat I want to propel. The thought of a boiler and engine arrangement balancing in a boat like an Indian Canoe with a beam of 26 inches with all the hot stuff close buy does not appeal so much. I want more beam and a lower C.G for stability.

My weight is 140lb
Boiler approx should come in at about 55lb
Engine about 25lb
My estimate of the boat is 200lb

Total somewhere about 500lb all up weight.

What sort or power should i look for in the drive system??

Thanks

VANYA

steamer · « **Reply #16 on:** March 26, 2013, 01:33:22 AM »

So many good questions!

I spent a couple of years working all that out for my boat...

You need

1 HP / 1000 pounds displacement to get to hull speed effectively....with real wind and real current...the dead calm day never ever is
If you want a big traditional canopy...put in more!

Expected speed.

1.2 x Square root ( waterline length in feet) = hull speed in knots....it takes exponentially more power the faster you try to go past hull speed. How "fine" the hull is...and the wetted area...have secondary effects.

So with a suitable steamboat hull...it is suggested to have a long sleek hull with a beam to length ratio of between 4- preferably 6 to 1.

My boat is 25 feet long has a 5 foot beam. ( L/B =5)

My boat is 1600 pounds all up and has about 2.4 HP at the shaft @ 550 rpm with 165 psi steam.

The speed you turn and the power you generate will dictate the prop required...My boat has a 16 x 18 pitch 3 blade prop that has been faired and set with razor sharp leading edges ....it's pretty efficient.

A 12 x 16....guestimate...would work for the 1 HP engine @ 400 rpm...with 35% slip....you get 16 x (1-.35) x 400 = 4160 inches/minute or about 347 feet/minute or about 4 mph or about 3.5 knots

That would jive with a 9 foot waterline length minimum....so an 11 foot canoe should probably have a bit more pitch and a bit less diameter....

A great pair of books to get are
"From my old boatshop" by Weston Farmer

and

Steamboats and Modern Steam Launches.

David Gerr's "Boat Strength"

"The new cold molded boat building" by Reuel Parker....GREAT BOOK...lots of great practical advise.

"Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction".....its the modern boat building bible.

And a couple of dozen others.

Dave

ths · « **Reply #17 on:** March 26, 2013, 02:18:17 AM »

Gougeon Brothers free download here:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/HowTo-Publications/GougeonBook%20061205.pdf

Looks good!

Hugh.

steamer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 26, 2013, 02:37:28 AM »

....and not cheap. But it pays to get the best....especially after what you put into a boat in time and materials.

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #19 on:** March 26, 2013, 08:11:00 AM »

Steamer,

Thank you for your indepth mathematical description.

I was thinking about 11.5 feet. You mention Reuel Parker, I have already been in contact with him and he has given me his thoughts on a craft that he designed for a steamboat builder who is building a 24 footer. Reuel publishes a nice 13 and 15 foot version with a fine entry bow and a fantail stern in single chine construction. Would make a nice first boat and simple method with maybe stitch and glue construction.

Like engines of 1 HP, there seems few boats designs too in the 12 foot length. Guess steamers just like taking there friends for a sail. That will come later for me I hope.

I will look out for the books.

Once again thanks for all the help.

Hayden

steamer · « **Reply #20 on:** March 26, 2013, 10:49:00 AM »

I saw that boat!....but I had built mine already.

Mine is based on a sketch of a boat called "Panatella"...I then spent a good deal of time widening it 5 feet, and changeing the entrance and the stern...it's more double ender now.

I performed all the stability calculations , and even built a test tank model to confirm the stability numbers before I built my boat.

I'm a big boy...and I can jump up and down on the gunnel amidships ...she's very stable.

That 24 footer is sweet....I'd go for it!

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #21 on:** March 26, 2013, 07:01:48 PM »

Dave,

A 24 footer is a BIG boat.

I am a small fella and only displace 130lb's, and I can fit into model size models almost.

There is a building blog of the guy building the Reuel Parker steam launch it looks a good craft to get afloat with.

When I get time I will post the link for the French Steam Canoe. I can tell you it is a real canoe, a fibreglass one.

With regard to the engine I was wanting a self starting, fwd/Reverse model so which Hasbrouck would you recommend as the best option. Considering I have a set of drawings to hand for the #5 but it is a double cylinder model and will consume a but more steam.

Thanks.

Hayden

RonGinger · « **Reply #22 on:** March 26, 2013, 08:34:37 PM »

Quote

24 footer is a BIG boat.

I am a small fella and only displace 130lb's, and I can fit into model size models almost.

And 11.5 ft is a TINY boat. My 17ft was barely big enough for one guy to operate. I have used a 12 ft canoe in camping, and with just me and some gear it was barely adequate. And remember, the waves and wind are not scaled to your choice of boat. You will not be comfortable using an 11.5 ft boat on any water larger than a swimming pool.

Many years ago, at least 30, a friend and I got the idea that we wanted steam canoes. I was a good deal more flexible then and it seemed like a good idea. We choose the stuart turner #1 for engine, and designed and build a suitable boiler. My friend was a welder, so he did two boilers, I built 2 engines and we traded. We both got smart before we invested all the work in the canoes, and my engine and boiler still sit on shelves in the shop.

Can you post a link to that Reuel Parker steam launch blog, I would like to see it. Boat building was my major interest before machining.

I remember another guy that wanted to build a small steam boat, and I twisted his arm a bit and he saw the light and did a fine boat, remember Dave

steamer · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2013, 08:41:48 PM »

Quote from: RonGinger on March 26, 2013, 08:34:37 PM

Quote
24 footer is a BIG boat.

I am a small fella and only displace 130lb's, and I can fit into model size models almost.

And 11.5 ft is a TINY boat. My 17ft was barely big enough for one guy to operate. I have used a 12 ft canoe in camping, and with just me and some gear it was barely adequate. And remember, the waves and wind are not scaled to your choice of boat. You will not be comfortable using an 11.5 ft boat on any water larger than a swimming pool.

Many years ago, at least 30, a friend and I got the idea that we wanted steam canoes. I was a good deal more flexible then and it seemed like a good idea. We choose the stuart turner #1 for engine, and designed and build a suitable boiler. My friend was a welder, so he did two boilers, I built 2 engines and we traded. We both got smart before we invested all the work in the canoes, and my engine and boiler still sit on shelves in the shop.

Can you post a link to that Reuel Parker steam launch blog, I would like to see it. Boat building was my major interest before machining.

I remember another guy that wanted to build a small steam boat, and I twisted his arm a bit and he saw the light and did a fine boat, remember Dave

Sir! Yes Sir!

Vanya,

Do what you want to....I've seen steamboats smaller than 11.5' ...the "Seagrape" comes to mind...but they are not really pleasant or that useful.

My friend Will and I wanted to take my boat out for one last fall cruise a couple of years back.....Oct 31st!.....The next day the trailer registration would expire, and well...it would be over for the winter....

So we went down to this little lake....maybe a mile or so across....
As we got there, the weather really picked up and it started to blow....we said Ahhh no problem! ..it's a little lake!....

As soon as we got out of the inlet we launched on, we rode right into 3 foot chop and 40mph winds....which on a little boat....was not particularly pleasant!...I could keep her into the wind just fine...but I had to stoke like crazy!....I only have 2HP or so...right?...so fuel was getting burned WAY faster than I anticipated.

Well, the waves were breaking up to the foredeck level and the spray got my friend drenched! ....I don't mind saying it was getting a bit scary...I mean we could have probably swam to shore from where we were as we were only about 150 away from the beach...but I didn't want to end up on a rock...or lose the boat....eventually I got her turned about ...which taking broadsides from the chop was OK for the boat as it is highly stable...but don't stand up or the snap roll would through you out of the boat....we brought her back into the cove...and struggled with the port turn into the dock...which with an oar and some blue air we got to.

Having a large rudder was very good thing as I could keep the boat pointed down wind as the stern wanted to broach...but I could steer her straight as she ran down the waves...

We got her back on the trailer...and I took her home...I later heard that other boats had worse luck...

In any case....excrement occurs! as they say in the trade....and my family goes into that boat...so I'm glad I built her 25 feet instead of 16-20 like I originally planned.....Ron can give you some feed back on the "Norman-D" which was 16 1/2 feet....

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2013, 09:04:51 PM »

I know 11-12 feet is a small boat.

I am still in the research phase of the project at present. Absolutly nothing is designed or built so don't panic.

You may twist my arms yet and all information is considered.

I do have available to me a clinker replica hull for a 16 x 6 footer for a Stuart 5A. In the UK Steam Boat Assocaiation Register it is listed and named Kathleen from New Zealand.

Hayden

steamer · « **Reply #25 on:** March 26, 2013, 09:19:47 PM »

16 x 6 is not too bad.....but more than 1HP I think.

Dave

steamer · « **Reply #26 on:** March 26, 2013, 09:31:37 PM »

Ron,

I think I saw that boat on Parker's site...but it's not there now. I know he has a lot more plans than he shows there though, and I doubt a steam launch is a popular request

If you contact him, I bet you could get a side elevation ...

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #27 on:** March 26, 2013, 10:28:27 PM »

I do have a bit of a plan and side elevation drawing already and with the construction photos on the blog site sort of know how it would fit together.

As for the 16 x 6 boat it is designed for a Stuart 5A, the exact engine I have the castings and drawing for. I can also buy the fibre glass hull mould for $400.

steamer · « **Reply #28 on:** March 27, 2013, 12:01:11 AM »

If the hull is clean and "fair", and you want a steamboat...go for it.

You'll pay 3 times that amount in just epoxy to build a boat.

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #29 on:** March 27, 2013, 10:34:42 AM »

This link below should get you to the pages of the Reuel Parker Victorian styled steam launch under construction.

It has been recently updated.

http://steamlaunchiona.blogspot.co.nz

Hayden

VANYA · « **Reply #30 on:** March 27, 2013, 10:58:58 AM »

Below are the You Tube links for the French fibreglass steam powered canoe, the owner I have been in contact with and who has been very helpful telling me in great detail what all his components are and the places to get them, even the engine /prop shaft coupling.

It is small, it appears unstable and looks uncomfortable but you must give him praise for making it work. Like any steam project it cost a lot of money and he even upgraded the boiler to a bigger one which you see in the video.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYIzSTuugQo" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYIzSTuugQo</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR8i-tt0b04" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR8i-tt0b04</a>

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt_QUhurRV8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt_QUhurRV8</a>

It might be a toy to some but the owner obviously likes it and so do his kids. Like myself it might be the first of many boats for him.

I like his ideas and simplicity anyway.

Hayden

steamer · « **Reply #31 on:** March 27, 2013, 12:25:57 PM »

Cool boat!

I like it....what is that a ST 4?

Dave

smfr · « **Reply #32 on:** March 27, 2013, 03:40:08 PM »

Sure looks like a Stuart No. 4 to me! Nice boiler too.

Simon

VANYA · « **Reply #33 on:** March 27, 2013, 05:48:47 PM »

Simon,

Yes it is a Stuart#4 which he purchased off ebay and the boiler is made by Maxitrack in the UK.

It is an interesting project that Oliver, the French owner, has undertaken. He obviously just wanted a steam canoe and worked hard to achieve it, learning from his trials along the way. He even had a propeller cast specially for his needs to suit his setup.

I guess all that can be said is that it does work and he is happy and it satisfies his type of sailing.It is pretty neat.

Hayden

VANYA · « **Reply #34 on:** March 27, 2013, 06:21:09 PM »

Simon,

I remember reading your build log for the ST 4. All I need to know in those pages!

I just wish there was a ST 4.5 with a bit more power.

Hayden

zeeprogrammer · « **Reply #35 on:** March 27, 2013, 10:29:20 PM »

I enjoyed those videos Hayden. Thanks.

steamer · « **Reply #36 on:** March 27, 2013, 11:27:04 PM »

What Zee said!

Dont get me wrong Haydon if your heart is set on it.....then go do it

Rushforth and chase your dreams!

Dave

ths · « **Reply #37 on:** March 28, 2013, 02:06:04 AM »

That could make canoeing so terribly pleasant! You could always paddle if you were so inclined.

Hugh.

VANYA · « **Reply #38 on:** March 28, 2013, 02:49:18 AM »

Once I decide on the engine I will have a fair idea of the boat dimensions. I think going by the discussion it will go out to 13 feet if the beam is the be narrow in the ratios given.

I like the Reuel Parker design as I can handle epoxy and glue structures and the blog page listed gives me a pretty good idea of what is involved with a chine hull. With our coming winter I can maybe have a boat built by summer and do the engine in between tasks. Alternatively I can power the hull with electric drive in the interim, then I will know how the boat, prop shaft and steering goes. Having built model boats for years it is really not much different, just heavier materials and thicker plywood.

Hugh, If you can fish off of a kayak like they do then a steamboat must be a lot more comfortable without the need to paddle. Always did like taking my camp chair in the dingy!

Hayden

Pete49 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 28, 2013, 03:02:45 AM »

Nice idea and looks good. I have a 'glass canoe just hanging around. OOPs looks like the list got longer

But then I can dream. As all the creeks are dry around here (except 20year floods) I would have to put wheels on it.

Pete

VANYA · « **Reply #40 on:** March 28, 2013, 04:27:56 AM »

You Aussies don't know if you need wheels or floats it seems. One State has got floods and the other is on fire!!

When I saw the Murray River I reckon I could jump across it!! A few gumtree twigs would keep the boiler roaring I would expect.

I will ask the French guy if I can put his photos up on the forum.As I said in previous posts , he did not get it all correct the first time either, and even now he has components he would change. It is just a matter of finding out what works and what does not. That is the fun of it.

You are ahead of me in the game already, I don't even have a canoe... you do!!

Hayden

ths · « **Reply #41 on:** March 28, 2013, 05:49:45 AM »

You know what they say, it never rains, but it pours. We have 6 states and 2 territories.

Hugh.

b.lindsey · « **Reply #42 on:** March 28, 2013, 11:01:34 AM »

I watched the videos yesterday and again this morning Hayden. Not much room to move about as others have said but he and the kids sure seem to be enjoying it. It was steaming out of the harbor at a pretty good clip too. I can surely understand the allure of having one's own steam powered launch.

Bill

VANYA · « **Reply #43 on:** March 28, 2013, 07:10:01 PM »

Bill.

Yes I know it is a narrow craft featured in the video so I think for safety of both occupants and of the steam drive system it is best to increase the beam. It means more work having to build a boat but it is important to do what is required in this respect. I would put safety before size. If it is not a safe boat then it is not a worthy project.

In escence the project is to build a low cost steamed powered boat.

Hayden

steamer · « **Reply #44 on:** March 28, 2013, 07:23:14 PM »

Hayden,

My boat was originally sketched at 4'6" or 138 cm Increasing the beam to 152 cm DOUBLED the righting moment of the boat...and I can jump up an down on the gunnel amidships, and she's completely safe. I'm a big boy!

You won't need to widen it much to make a big difference....

In the book "From my old boatshop"...is a great section on making test tank models. They are quick to make, and they will tell you with 100% accuracy if you have a problem or not.....Most Marine Architects will do just that before the let a design go to the yard.

Dave

VANYA · « **Reply #45 on:** April 12, 2013, 12:35:29 PM »

Steamer,

My books arrived Dave.

Bill Durham's has plenty of information and some very nice looking craft, conversions and original steamboats. Friends think I am carring a bible around. Guess it sort of is....been there done that sort of book.

Still,contemplating engines. Now I have two Hasbrouck plans, #5 and # 7... No boiler......no boat......plenty of dreams!!

Will not be going anywhere fast while I think.

Hayden

steamer · « **Reply #46 on:** April 12, 2013, 01:17:41 PM »

Keep the dream Hayden.....persistance will make them come true!

Dave

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Author Topic: Hasbrouck #7 Double Size. (Read 16567 times)