Surface finish

[Arbalest]

Has anyone tried this?

http://www.machinistblog.com/how-to-grind-and-use-the-contrary-finishing-tool/

[Chris J]

Tbh I find the photos a little difficult to view.
They seem a bit dark.

Could be handy though.

[wheeltapper]

I've made a tool like that and it gives a lovely finish.
used properly the swarf comes off like cobwebs.

theres nothing new under the sun tho, L C Mason describes a tool like that in my 1963 edition of 'Using the small lathe'.

Roy.

[Arbalest]

I've made a tool like that and it gives a lovely finish.
used properly the swarf comes off like cobwebs.
Roy.

Ok Roy, I'll make one then!

[Chris J]

I've made a tool like that and it gives a lovely finish.
used properly the swarf comes off like cobwebs.
Roy.

Ok Roy, I'll make one then!

Great, I'll follow this.
It might help decipher what is required.

[Arbalest]

I wasn't offering a tutorial Chris!     Seeing as you've "volunteered" me though  what do you need?  Photo's? Video?    As it's only 2 degrees in my workshop at the moment though I won't be going out there for a while! 

[Chris J]

I wasn't offering a tutorial Chris!     Seeing as you've "volunteered" me though  what do you need?  Photo's? Video?    As it's only 2 degrees in my workshop at the moment though I won't be going out there for a while! 

Come on, you can  take a few simple pictures and 200 words or so on each step along the way 

[joegib]

I've made a tool like that and it gives a lovely finish.
used properly the swarf comes off like cobwebs.

theres nothing new under the sun tho, L C Mason describes a tool like that in my 1963 edition of 'Using the small lathe'.

Roy.

Yup. Words and music here:



Mason's version employs a round toolbit but the cutting principle's the same.

Joe

[Dan Rowe]

This type of finish tool can also be used with a shaper.
http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html

Dan

[Chris J]

I've made a tool like that and it gives a lovely finish.
used properly the swarf comes off like cobwebs.

theres nothing new under the sun tho, L C Mason describes a tool like that in my 1963 edition of 'Using the small lathe'.

Roy.

Yup. Words and music here:.......

Mason's version employs a round toolbit but the cutting principle's the same.

Joe

I wonder about the similarities with the Diamond Tool Cutter or Tangential tool

[Chris J]

This type of finish tool can also be used with a shaper.
http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/columns/shaper_column_43.html

Dan

Great site, thanks

Here is the Bridgeport page

http://www.neme-s.org/shapers/bridgeport.html

[zeeprogrammer]

Very interesting thread.
I really need to start learning to make my own cutting tools.

[Goldstar31]

We are missing the point because there are TWO issues!

The first is the actual removal of large quantities of metal and the second is 'fine finishing'.
I think that there is plenty written about 'hacking' great chunks down to nearly size but what of this finish- the stuff that people look at. The rough turnings are the things in the waste but really lathes in a professional context, do this. Finishing and to size is something that is done- on a grinder.

What we- as amateurs are trying to do is doing it all on on a lathe.- and some of us are trying to do it with one tool. Rudely, and the Best of British Luck, mate!

If you want to do what the old turners did is to go back to what they recorded. None of this rubbish about this and that new gadget. The old boys 'honed' tools and used lathes that were pretty similar to what is rolling out of China today. What they could do was make a constructive effort to do the last bit of the work- on tools that were razor sharp. They didn't use Carbides or even high speed steel. They used carbon steel.

What did they achieve? Well, if it comes to the evaluation, can many of us flog a metal turning turning lathe to an Arab oil baron? The old boys could flog a lathe to a Tsar of Russia or some Clown Prince at a price of perhaps a street of houses. Go get a price for an old Holzapffel or Evans ornamental turning lathe- with all the goodies and have a hell of an awakening.

So how did these old men sharpen their tools? Merely with what some call a goniometer or goniostat which is a simple jig to sharpen a carbon tool on a bit of cast iron or glass or better still, on a piece of lead with progressively finer grades of abrasive which they crushed - and graded themselves.

OK, is this all written down and not some old bloke talking about some long lost black art.  Holzapffel wrote it all down and it is still on the net.

The diagrams are still there. Mine are on the book  shelf. One bloke recently sort of tarted up - and simplified a goniostat. It was a bloke called Conrad Hoffman and on advanced tool sharpening. If you have something like an old hockey puck and a bit of plate glass- you get on with it.

And yes, Mr Hoffman got it right- not to buy a street of house but RIGHT enough.  Read it up- and be surprised

[Tennessee Whiskey]

While most of us are trying to do do this with one tool, we realize, we are not of the greatest generation as you are. Your generation did amazing things with nothing. We are in awe. However, in the scope of life in the 21st century some people maybe looking for a little more. We can buy some tooling on the " interweb" that will produce fantastic results, we can buy tooling that requires no grinding, we can access drawing in great detail,  and we got access to the whole world with a keystroke, this was provided to us by your generation, and, we're thankful! However, as much as machining is an exact science it is so far from it. Each machine is different, metal is different, the workers method is different. The results should be looked at as what is setting on the table . My grandaddy's brother told me one time:  I bet you were a real wheel horse in your day. ( I was bout 10). In everyones eyes they may have the answer and they may quote: but, set what ya know on the table.

[fcheslop]

A lot or most of the manufactured tooling is designed for max speed max feed rates and for machines far more rigid than ours.
There is a lot to be gained by learning to make our own tooling either in HSS or Carbon steel as well as saving money you can tailor the bit to the job in hand
Have a look at the sites already mentioned and you will see variations of tooling that has been around for many years
I find or found that start of with the basics as shown in LC Masons book or Mr Sparey and if it don't cut the way you want or expect then play around with the angles of dangle its not a black art but at the same time some thing you need to practice at its the same hitting sizes you see people measuring to within tenths this must be worrying to new comers when really all that matters to us is that the parts fit together it doesn't simply matter if the bore is slightly bigger than drawn just make the piston fit  but Im digressing
The old KISS is a very good ethic you dont need loads of fangled equipment to make toys yes if you want to make money but not for toy making
Have a look at some of the past masters. I agree the drawings today are far better but some times wonder

[mklotz]

In everyones eyes they may have the answer and they may quote: but, set what ya know on the table.

Wouldn't it be nice if Norman showed us some pictures of his projects so we could fully appreciate all the expertise he's passing along?

In fifteen years of Norman's retellings on numerous fora I can't remember ever seeing a single photo of one of his projects.  I can't believe you're modest, Norman.  And you've often told us how wealthy you are so you must own numerous top-of-the-line cameras.

Come on Norman.  Let's see some of that good stuff that you've built.

[zeeprogrammer]

For me, the most daunting part of starting this hobby has been the idea of making one's own cutters.
Despite what so many say about how easy it is (just takes some practice) or the improved results.

I've done a little. Enough to tell me that you're all right and that it's worth it.

I really need to 'start over' and get more of the basics under my belt.

Just saying I really appreciate all the good info.

[fcheslop]

Carl you probably thought the same way the first time you sharpened a knife or chisel but its simply down to practice I still balls it up and often but hey that's part of the fun.No matter how much I learn I never seem to know very much but that's what is great about this hobby and also a great thing about this site there always seems to be some one who will pass the knowledge on and long may it continue
 

[Chris J]

For me, the most daunting part of starting this hobby has been the idea of making one's own cutters.
Despite what so many say about how easy it is (just takes some practice) or the improved results.

I've done a little. Enough to tell me that you're all right and that it's worth it.

I really need to 'start over' and get more of the basics under my belt.

Just saying I really appreciate all the good info.

Well said, me too.

There are many roads leading to Rome, they all get there in the end.

[Dan Rowe]

OK, is this all written down and not some old bloke talking about some long lost black art.  Holzapffel wrote it all down and it is still on the net.

I have the first 3 volumes on the shelf which were originally published in 1843 they are very interesting. The ornamental lathes they made were quite interesting. To see some of the lathes and the work they were designed for see: http://www.ornamentalturning.co.uk/

Dan

[John S]

Come on Norman.  Let's see some of that good stuff that you've built.

Remember that I'm the peasant boy that left school at 14 after 6 years of war and nothing of an education.

I simply can't 'do photograhy' it is something for the rich -or like yourself priviledged. I borrowed a camera some years back. The stuff is on my computer. You give me your e-mail address- you want it- you post it- bluff finally called.

Regards

Norman

Norman me old mate.
I'm up in Newcastle and Darlington 3rd week of March servicing some CNC machines.

Would be more than willing to pop in, have a natter and take some pictures.

What you say ?

[Dan Rowe]

So how did these old men sharpen their tools? Merely with what some call a goniometer or goniostat which is a simple jig to sharpen a carbon tool on a bit of cast iron or glass or better still, on a piece of lead with progressively finer grades of abrasive which they crushed - and graded themselves.

Here are a few photos of a goniostat I just copied from ebay. It would not be hard to make one but the old ones are very nice just a bit steep on the wallet.




Dan

[Chris J]

A bit steep on the wallet 

You are the master of understatement Dan.

[Johnb]

I have success fly cutting mild steel using carbon (silver) steel, filed to shape, hardened, tempered and honed. It didn't work well first time, but I've got the hang of it now!

[ScroungerLee]

That goniostat is very interesting!  It looks like the two pins fit into a slot to allow feeding the bit into whatever grinding wheel or belt is being used?

Lee

Edit: I should have researched first.  It looks like the two pins slide on any flat surface while the bit being shaped or sharpened is moved around on a stone set on the same flat surface.   Wow, if you understand that last sentence, congratulations!

This should help: http://www.turners.org/images/gonia.gif

[Johnb]

Hmmmm! Posh. 

I might need to think about one of those. Puts my honing gear to shame.

[fcheslop]

Gosh don't know how Iv managed this long without one.Nice bit of kit but talk about over kill 

[Dan Rowe]

Goniostat drawings by Mike Fallows
http://www.ornamentalturners.info/Resources/articles.php

Dan

[DaveH]

Wouldn't it be nice if ...........

Now that would make a good song title - especially for the Beach Boys 
 
DaveH