Author Topic: Just Tooling Around  (Read 18294 times)

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15294
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2013, 03:37:20 PM »
Agreed Tel: One of the best sources of 303 stainless I have found is the metal bars in old computer printers and photocopiers ;D.

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline tel

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1657
  • Bathurst District, NSW, Oz.
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2013, 03:43:22 PM »
Yea verily Jo! And wonderous lumps, bars and rods of various metals can be extracted from the guts of all sorts of unlikely things.
The older I get, the better I was.
Lacerta es reptiles quisnam mos non exsisto accuso nusquam

Offline Rayanth

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 95
  • Lake Stevens, Washington, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2013, 06:25:37 PM »
Metal is expensive but freight is even more so.  Search out local sources.  Scrap and Junk yards are a possibility.  Even hardware stores and farm supply stores.  If you can avoid freight cost you will be way ahead.

Jerry

Onlinemetals is a short drive away. I don't pay freight unless I'm feeling REALLY lazy and let them ship it.

addendum: Not to say it's the wrong way to go, but I am OCD about used things... if I can get it new, I will - regardless of price difference. Drives the wife nuts, she's frugal to no end and buys used if she can...

-- Rayanth
---Please understand that I am a complete novice, and may take a very wrong path to doing things. Take my opinions and procedures with a grain of salt.
--- All photos taken with a Canon Rebel t1i and resized using "OptimumJPEG".
---Please alert me to any photos or links that do not load.

Offline Rayanth

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 95
  • Lake Stevens, Washington, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2013, 07:54:19 PM »
Basicly, you should plan your hobby. I would be loathe to start on a regime of what appears to be in the midst of 'unknowns'
Get your lathe set up right- and then start making accessories and only then start making- whatever you fancy.

Once you have sorted out 'your troubles', you should be making your turning on the lathe easier and with it, extending your experience.
From - a not so wild guess, you are actually buying the fancy stuff rather than the bread and butter items. Fine, you'll need them but wouldn't you be better off by making a 'something' to grind up little boring tools and these you will need to poke little holes to make engines.
For a bit of silly studding- and a few nuts and washers, you could make a tool to tell you exactly where your lathe tool bit should be.  It will not win prizes in a competition or even merit taking a photograph- but it will work. It will have taken but a few minutes- and precious little money.
Again, you want to be able to determine lengths and depths but do you really need DRO's when a bit of rusty scrap metal will make up a capstan depth stop- and use the back ends of twist drills to act as gauges. Mine - well, it came to grief when the snows came and then the winds took my workshop roof off but I am making a new one -out of bits of rusty steel that corroded . The cost- was time. Oh and a lot of rust in my lathe tray!
I bought a set of 8mm studding and for a party piece some 6mm stuff- and I'm making a few more holding down bolts and things - but in cheaper metric sizes because here in the UK, Imperial stuff is costly and difficult to get.  The cost -again- a few very small notes.
With minimum 'disposable income', I bought a great lump of Meehanite as a scrap marking out table. I hacked it into usable pieces by chain drilling- and clouted it with a home made chisel to make it separate. I made up a tool and cutter grinder using a scrapped washing machine motor. The cost was pennies plus the all  important correct abrasive wheels.

Perhaps the foregoing will prove of interest- who knows? Photographs? I've still got my old cheap Russian Leica copy- and it don't work because I can't get 35mm film.

I've read a lot of posts here and elsewhere on how much of a change the DRO's made for people, both on lathe and mill. Being that I have been 3d modeling these engines for two years now and am only just setting about cutting metal, DRO's are a bit closer to how i'm used to thinking out the operations from the modeling...it'll just make things an easier transition for me, and i have yet to see anyone say they went to DRO's and wished they hadn't. Note that I only got the DRO's for the cross and top slides, that mount to the screw.

I understand the benefits of playing around, but I also understand the benefits of just going ahead and giving it a shot...if i mess up terribly, I'm not the type to give up easily. I am starting with the easiest parts first (and it's an easy engine design, i can easily figure out all the operations needed)...if i make mistakes or get stuck, i do have sufficient stock for a few more tries.

As it is, I think i'm done with buying the expensive addons for now. I knew coming in that it would not be a cheap hobby, and there were certainly more things that I wanted to by to add on, but i went with what I felt would be the most useful to me.

I'm also not that great at coming up with cheap workarounds. (i don't even know what a capstan is?) ... and my training and reputation at work have instilled a sense of accuracy that I won't even try to shake -- if there is a way to be more accurate, I will do it. I build $150mln airplanes that carry 200+ passengers on international flights. There's no room for shortcuts...shortcuts can have a cost measured in lives.

I know it probably sounds like I'm being resistant to suggestions. Far from it! Everything you fine folks impart is listened to, but as has been said many a time -- there is no one "right" way. (some of you are even disagreeing with each others' advice to me...this is great, from my perspective, I get to see both sides of the fence, and choose more wisely)

-- Rayanth
---Please understand that I am a complete novice, and may take a very wrong path to doing things. Take my opinions and procedures with a grain of salt.
--- All photos taken with a Canon Rebel t1i and resized using "OptimumJPEG".
---Please alert me to any photos or links that do not load.

Offline Mike OConnor

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 61
  • Tallahassee, Florida USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2013, 08:18:44 PM »
Hello Rayanth,

To help you with controlling the length of your turned shoulders, buy a pair of hermaphrodite or odd-leg calipers and layout your work after facing the end. These calipers have a divider leg that is adjustable and a fixed caliper leg. They can be set very accurately with a steel rule of the precision machinist type. Use some layout dye or paint the area with the shoulder with a Sharpie. Important technique when using these calipers is to keep the divider point perpendicular to the steel rule when setting the dimension and perpendicular to the axis of the work when you transfer the length and mark the workpiece. To set them, place the caliper leg (fixed) on the end of the steel rule and open the calipers to your required length. Adjust the length of the divider point so it is perpendicular to the steel rule and lock it. Then set the length and transfer it to your work piece. Set the lathe spindle RPM very slow and be careful of the chuck jaws or lathe dog, etc. and mark your work. Some machinists will mark their finished lengths, others will leave stock for finishing. You will figure out what works best for you.

You can also mark the length of your shoulder with your turning tool, just make sure there isn't a burr on the end of the work your measuring from. A 6" steel rule should work nicely for much of the work on your mini-lathe. It is also one of the first measuring tools to master when learning about machining.

It is common practice to layout or mark with your tool, all of your shoulder lengths 1/64" undersize with the steel rule for rough turning. With a bit of practice you can do this quickly. This leaves plenty of material to face the shoulder to square it up after rough turning, measure and take a finish cut. If you have a number of shoulders to turn, it is handy to block out the rough lengths and diameter(s) with a parting tool. General rule is to leave 1/64" on all surfaces for finish turning. However, .015" is easier to mentally add/ subtract from most modern decimal print dimensions. Remember to SUBTRACT .015" from a shoulder, .030" from a groove (two shoulders) and ADD .030" to your diameters (.015" on each side). This is what I was taught as an apprentice many years ago and passed on to others over the years.

To finish your shoulder lengths, you can use the top slide parallel to the lathe axis if your tail stock isn't in the way. The short distance traveled to finish face the length dimension won't have the error you encountered while trying to turn a parallel diameter with it. Remember to always use the geometry built in to the lathe. If you want a diameter parallel to the axis of the lathe, you must feed with the carriage. If you want a surface perpendicular to the axis of the lathe, feed with the cross slide.

There are other techniques using the compound rest at 30 degrees from perpendicular for length control, carriage stops, leadscrew hand wheels and DRO's. However, using basic layout and measuring tools and getting really comfortable with them will serve you better in the long run. There is a good reason that 6" steel rule is in most professional machinist's or toolmaker's pockets. It is probably the most used tool during the work day. With practice, you can work to .005" with care and proper vision.

Mike

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3781
  • Springfield, Tennessee. USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2013, 09:07:59 PM »
 Rayanth, I understand fully what you are saying, there are many ways to achieve that perfect part in end. The perfect part is the final goal. As Marv said this is one hobby where being a little OCD really pays off. For the most part all the old boys ( and Jo) that post here love recreating in scale the age of steam, a few their hot rod youths,and a few their love of tooling. While hearing how the old masters may have done it may make for good bedtime reading, I think the lot of us here want to answer your questions just as one of your co-workers would about something at work. Now, I bet if you used a little "scuttle-butt" at work and told some of the ol boys that are in tool and die how passionate you were about this hobby, they would find some way to work with you. Don't worry bout the tools purchases, I bought a way too expensive scope to put on a .22 rifle the I can shoot it's capability with open sighted, I bought DRO's, rotary tables, broaches, a good camera, and you know why? I like it. Some may have exotic cars, villas in Spain, and lodges in Ireland, but, probably all me and you care bout is making an accurate part.
Now, a little hint on material. Look for stuff people throw away and don't be bashful bout asking. Ask Bogs. Old lawnmowers, old printers, fans, they all have shafts. They ain't no scrap: just big pieces and little pieces. You haven't said or I missed where you live, but, if your on my side of the water there is scrap bits everywhere. In old redneck terms: Just watch how he did it and do it just like only better. IMHO us ol f$rts here can give you tons of answers, but with your passion you need some type of visual or hands on instruction to go along with our charm, good looks oh and yeah that occasional history lesson.
It will start to become easier till you start asking yourself harder questions, but, hey that's why I do it.

Yo Redneck,
Eric


Offline mklotz

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2620
  • LA, CA, USA
    • SOFTWARE FOR PEOPLE WHO BUILD THINGS!
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2013, 09:23:28 PM »
Stay away from bed frames [often found street-side on garbage day] though.  Many of them are undrillably hard and unweldable.  Suitable only for making 'roo bars for your demolition derby car.

Also avoid beyllium-copper.  Read the MSDS and you'll understand why.

Be extra careful with magnesium.  It burns viciously.

Used wheel weights, often available free at the local garage or tire store, can be melted down to make great soft hammers.

Regards, Marv
Home Shop Freeware
https://www.myvirtualnetwork.com/mklotz

Offline ScroungerLee

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 299
  • Southwest Connecticut, US, North America, Earth
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2013, 11:24:43 PM »
Get to know a local auto repair shop.  Many of them toss out used parts and let a scrap dealer take them.  I have gotten lots of nice things that way.  The shaft from shock absorbers and struts is very precise and machines nicely.  Plenty of aluminum can be had that way if you are in to casting.

Lee
Mmmmm.... Shiny!

Offline Rayanth

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 95
  • Lake Stevens, Washington, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2013, 07:54:41 PM »
As my tooling grows, I will likely be more interested in scrap. right now I'm limited to a 7x12 lathe, a hacksaw, and a bench drill. Oh and a 6" grinder. Perhaps down the road when I have a bandsaw I will be more interested in larger scrap.

I did stumble upon a source for titanium, of all things. I do not know what alloy it is, but it comes in the form of used aircraft bolts and fasteners. A catalog lookup confirmed the spec for them calls for titanium alloy, but no specific alloy was called out by that source. I nabbed 6 good-sized bolts, and will keep them on hand for a later time when I feel comfortable (or daring) enough to machine titanium. drilling it at work always gives me pause for consideration, as it will ignite much like magnesium if you're not careful. (Titanium swarf MUST be kept separate from aluminum swarf. the difference in potential can cause enough current to generate sufficient heat to start a fire)

Big Brown showed up with my package from LMS. missing 1 item, so a quick call to them and they have it in an envelope going out priority mail. Tonight I'll clean up the workbench so I have room on Saturday to tear down the compound for DRO and QCTP installations.

-- Rayanth
---Please understand that I am a complete novice, and may take a very wrong path to doing things. Take my opinions and procedures with a grain of salt.
--- All photos taken with a Canon Rebel t1i and resized using "OptimumJPEG".
---Please alert me to any photos or links that do not load.

Offline steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12697
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2013, 08:40:05 PM »
Titanium!...YUCK POOEY!!!>>>RUN AWAY!

Miserable to machine....even for old timers   Stick with 12L14....Brass, Cast Iron, 1144SP, 6061-T6, 7075-T6, 2024-T6.....

WD40 works great for cutting aluminum.   Brass and Iron and 12L14 you can cut dry...1144SP could stand some lubrication

Much more user friendly

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline Rayanth

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 95
  • Lake Stevens, Washington, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2013, 09:03:02 PM »
 :Lol: Yes, I know titanium can be awful,  but I work with it daily and know many tricks... I'm sure I can adapt them to lathework. It's a little bit easier to work with than stainless, in the work i'm used to with it. Just don't let it work-harden!

Before I even THINK of chucking it in my lathe, though, I need to acquire a fire extinguisher or three.

And I can't think of a way to obtain anything in steel scrap from my 'source'.. used fasteners are easy to come by. used parts are carefully controlled. About the only other thing I can get is aluminum sheet (6061 or 7075) in various thicknesses up to 0.25, but gotta keep that on the down-low.

--Rayanth
---Please understand that I am a complete novice, and may take a very wrong path to doing things. Take my opinions and procedures with a grain of salt.
--- All photos taken with a Canon Rebel t1i and resized using "OptimumJPEG".
---Please alert me to any photos or links that do not load.

Offline Rayanth

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 95
  • Lake Stevens, Washington, USA
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #56 on: March 08, 2013, 07:53:30 AM »
OK, Dave, Ya got me on that one. Did some more research on the alloy, and it's -4V (Grade 5)... the worst for machinability. See what happens when I get excited?  :wallbang: :facepalm2: :facepalm:

I'll just stick to buying metals for now.

-- Rayanth, out to the shop for an hour or two to clean the bench in preparation of tearing down the lathe again
---Please understand that I am a complete novice, and may take a very wrong path to doing things. Take my opinions and procedures with a grain of salt.
--- All photos taken with a Canon Rebel t1i and resized using "OptimumJPEG".
---Please alert me to any photos or links that do not load.

Offline kevin45

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 18
Re: Just Tooling Around
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2013, 02:44:38 PM »
Just to add a couple of comments, one about materials......if you have a Fastenal, ask them what they have in their scrap barrel. Back behind all of their shelves, is where they keep their bar stock and some sheet stock. You can make a deal with them on the scrap as they sell their pieces off to local scrap dealers. I was going to buy a complete barrel of different sizes of stock, but I had some unexpected bills come up. Anyways, just a suggestion.

Up above in one of the replies, someone mentioned to the OP about not worrying about the feeds and speeds right now. Good info, BUT the OP needs to worry about it to a certain extent. I've watched a few toolmakers wreck a lathe or two by not knowing how to thread on the lathe, and the lead screw was engaged for threading. 1200 rpm and engaging the feed is not a good thing at all  :Lol: I would suggest that he runs the saddle all the way back to the tailstock and play around and get used to what the difference is between threading feeds and your standard machining feeds. I'd venture to say that everyone at least once has lost that magical RED button that shuts everything down when in panic mode. I know I've watched that button disappear a time or two in my 30+ years  :embarassed:

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal