Author Topic: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners  (Read 17214 times)

Offline black85vette

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Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« on: January 30, 2013, 01:22:25 AM »
This has been kicking around in my head for a long time.   I built Elmer's Standby years ago.  The rotary valve interested me.   I did not like the small scale / drills / screws / taps etc.   Always thought it would be fun on a larger scale.  Then the post about a beginner's engine got me to thinking about this again.   Drew up some quick pencil sketches at work with some rough dimensions as guide lines.

With the same approach as my past EZ Engine I wanted it simple, no mill needed, common tools, and minimum of pieces to order.   

So here we go.  Started with .75" x 2" aluminum bar and bought 4.5 inches of it.   .75" for the main shaft support.  1.5" for the cylinder and 2" for the flywheel.   Cut it into its pieces;


IMG_5888 by black85vette, on Flickr


Flywheel first.   Locate the center and center punch.   I use some cloth gaffer's tape on my chuck for added friction.   Hold it tight with the live center and then make it round;



IMG_5893 by black85vette, on Flickr



IMG_5894 by black85vette, on Flickr


Face both sides then drill the hole for the .25" shaft undersize followed by a chucking reamer.



IMG_5895 by black85vette, on Flickr


Cylinder is drilled undersize 1.25" deep followed by .5" chucking reamer.  Cylinder is .375" below the top.   Then drill a .125" hole at the very rear of the cylinder bore.



IMG_5891 by black85vette, on Flickr


Support for the crank shaft is drilled undersize followed by .25" chucking reamer.   The shaft is also .375" down from the top.   Then two .125" holes are drilled.   They need to be .25" apart and evenly spaced in from each side.   They match up with the valve.  Rerun the reamer after drilling the two holes to clean it up for the shaft.



IMG_5890 by black85vette, on Flickr


The valve is cut into the shaft.   The exaust port is .25" wide and the intake is .5" wide.   You can see the relationship to the two holes in the support piece.    The two notches are .050" deep.



IMG_5897 by black85vette, on Flickr


Drill a .125" hole in the end closest to the exhaust (shorter) notch.   Drill to the center of the notch.



IMG_5886 by black85vette, on Flickr


Then drill through the exhaust notch into the hole just drilled in the end of the shaft.



IMG_5887 by black85vette, on Flickr


I made a piston from .5" brass and .5" long.  Just turned down some on one end and made a flat at the center of the piston.   Drilled and tapped a 6-32 thread.   Made a crank from some scrap aluminum.   Used a 6-32 set screw in the end of the crank and drilled / tapped a 6-32 hole offset .375" from the shaft for the crank pin to give a stroke of .75".     Made two .125" wide spacers for the shaft to keep the flywheel and crank away from the support.



IMG_5899 by black85vette, on Flickr


Used epoxy to glue three .125" pieces of brass tubing into place and to hold the flywheel on.   Using some fuel line that is the right diameter for a snug fit on the brass tubing.   Also made some small spacers / bushings to go over the screws for the connecting rod to ride on.  They are just wide enough (.075") to allow the connecting rod to not bind when the screws are tightened.  Connecting rod was drilled just slightly larger than the bushings and was made from 2" of .25" x .125" brass.



IMG_5900 by black85vette, on Flickr


There you go.   Took me about 6  hours of shop time.   So maybe this is the One-a-day engine.  Fired up the compressor and it ran on about 2-3 lbs of air pressure.   Here is the video.  (because I know you will harass me if I don't post one)



<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjVXyCmL3bc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjVXyCmL3bc</a>

Offline Johnmcc69

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2013, 01:30:13 AM »
Thats slick!
& simple, nice...

John

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2013, 01:41:10 AM »
A little diversion Rick??

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2013, 01:50:09 AM »
6 hours?!!! Augh!
That might scare off some beginners.
First time I built an engine it took me that long to convince myself I had the stock in the chuck right.  :Lol:

Nah. That'll show the beginners how easy it can be.

Nice job Rick.
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Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2013, 01:53:22 AM »
A little diversion Rick??

Yes, waiting on a couple of orders to come in.   Very relaxing to go from something that is half done in 4 months to something completed in 6 hrs. 

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 02:11:36 AM »
Yea been thinking about dragging the Poppin out of the cupboard; no I can't, I need to stay focused on the project at hand.

Nice job on he Standby by the way :ThumbsUp:

Dave

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 06:27:37 AM »
Wow!

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 11:12:24 AM »
Very nice Rick!!  You should enter it in the competition for the beginner's engine too.

Bill

Offline Chris J

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 02:03:52 PM »
6 hours?!!! Augh!
That might scare off some beginners.
First time I built an engine it took me that long to convince myself I had the stock in the chuck right.  :Lol:

Nah. That'll show the beginners how easy it can be.

Nice job Rick.

6hrs to drink coffee and ponder the meaning of life.

That's how things go in my workshop as well.

Anyway, a good post. thanks
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Offline propforward

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 03:00:31 PM »


6hrs to drink coffee and ponder the meaning of life.

That's how things go in my workshop as well.

Anyway, a good post. thanks

Yes - great post. I am pleased to see that someone else shares my "speed of approach" in the shoppe too. I would say I am currently at about 3 cups of tea per fastener inserted or removed into / from a thing.  ;D
Stuart

Forging ahead regardless.

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 01:58:04 AM »
Some updates;

I posted my version of the McCabe Runner in another thread and was thinking about reworking my original EZ Engine into this same format.   A thought occurred to me.    Instead of 3 separate engines, make this a modular system with common components.   The valve that I came up with for the McCabe could just as easy be a standalone valve and use the same cylinder / piston as the previous engine.   That would use most of the engine but make it with 3 different valve types.   So maybe instead of EZ this becomes the 3Fer?   Then the McCabe with the more complicated bell crank and connecting rod can be a level 2.

I have some basic dimensions drawn up and will post them now.   I forgot to convert them to .pdf which are easier to display so I will just put up the .jpg version for now.   But the cool news is that Johnmcc69 put this into CAD and produced some really nice 3D drawings.   I will post them also.

Later I will post up the basic engine with the 2nd type valve for it.   It is in the shop and almost ready to run.


Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 02:27:13 AM »
Here is the same engine but just added the valve assembly.



IMG_5917 by black85vette, on Flickr


Here is the type of valve being used.  Still don't know what to call it.   Anyone know??



IMG_5919 by black85vette, on Flickr


Third valve will be a piston type valve that looks like a barbell.


Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 02:37:12 AM »
Here is a quick video.   Runs fine at low pressure.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N1rdvxc--I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N1rdvxc--I</a>

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 03:20:14 AM »
Here is the type of valve being used.  Still don't know what to call it.   Anyone know??

Don't ask me. I'd probably come up with some generic names that start with 'doo' or 'thinga' and then Marv would be all over me.

Nice video. You just know there's some people out there thinking they could do that. And they can!
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Offline Groomengineering

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 05:26:57 PM »
Hey Rick, interesting concept, I like it.  :ThumbsUp:  As to your valve, I would consider it a piston valve because it, well, pistons...  :thinking:  :shrug:  ^-^

Cheers

Jeff
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Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2013, 07:23:21 PM »
Here are some more drawings.   They are in .pdf and easier to zoom in and read them.   I put the second and third valve configurations together on a page.


Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2013, 12:28:20 AM »
Here is the 3rd valve type for this engine build.   Same valve configuration as my original EZ Engine.   Quick and easy to make and runs great.



IMG_5920 by black85vette, on Flickr



Quick shot of it running on about 5 lbs.   It will run well under 2.


<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkaXeh-p2p0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkaXeh-p2p0</a>

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2013, 02:08:55 AM »
Rick,
Do you think this is too short coupled to include a double acting cylinder? Maybe remake the base to extend the coupling and then add a whole bunch of double acting valves too.
Alan

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2013, 02:51:47 AM »
Rick,
Do you think this is too short coupled to include a double acting cylinder? Maybe remake the base to extend the coupling and then add a whole bunch of double acting valves too.
Alan


Alan;

Certainly a piston valve could be used for a double acting cylinder.   It adds some complexity.   The piston would need a connecting rod running through a gland of some sort.   Don't know that this design could be modified to do that.   It does present a great design challenge.  Can we design a beginner double acting engine?  Maybe an intermediate design?

How would you go about the cylinder head / connecting rod?


Edit;  Just went and looked at some files I have collected and another of Elmer's looks promising.   The Slider is a basic double acting engine that is not too complicated.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 04:10:54 AM by black85vette »

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2013, 07:17:24 PM »
Rick,
Looking at your design got me thinking about a progressive engine: one that starts out simply and switches in more difficult or complicated pieces as the hobbiest develops skills.
To go from where it is to a double-acting engine it would need a gland plate as well as a guide. The two together would hold the packing in place. Maybe make the gland as a flat plate and flange the guide, then bolt through both of them. Then single acting with an articulated connecting rod would just omit the gland. Gives still another mode to assemble it in.
By using the separate valve block like you do, the engine avoids the problems a beginner can have when a part needs a lot of machining steps before it's done. No drill, bore, face, drill steam ports, drill bolt circle, on and on, and one mistake loses it all. If you want a perfect beginner engine I think this is it.
Alan

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2013, 07:45:29 PM »
Rick,
Looking at your design got me thinking about a progressive engine: one that starts out simply and switches in more difficult or complicated pieces as the hobbiest develops skills.
To go from where it is to a double-acting engine it would need a gland plate as well as a guide. The two together would hold the packing in place. Maybe make the gland as a flat plate and flange the guide, then bolt through both of them. Then single acting with an articulated connecting rod would just omit the gland. Gives still another mode to assemble it in.
By using the separate valve block like you do, the engine avoids the problems a beginner can have when a part needs a lot of machining steps before it's done. No drill, bore, face, drill steam ports, drill bolt circle, on and on, and one mistake loses it all. If you want a perfect beginner engine I think this is it.
Alan


I was thinking about this today and realized that the 3rd valve (barbell piston) would just need a second port on the side to make it workable as a double acting valve.  Cylinder just needs an additional port at the open end.  I could shorten the piston just a bit to make some room.  I think your idea of a plate as the gland would be workable.   Just need to workout a simple crosshead.

This could be fun.  Thanks for the ideas.

What next?   flyball governor?   Hit/miss version?   :ROFL:


Edit;  just looked at the layout and I think there might be room to do this without moving anything.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 07:52:42 PM by black85vette »

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2013, 10:05:37 PM »
How about something like this.   Ream it at .125" for the connecting rod and packing may not be necessary.   At .375" it could be long enough to not need a cross head / guide.   Just bolt it up to the face of the cylinder block.   I added the second port for the cylinder and valve.   Have not tested this idea.   It is just on paper.




Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 12:11:17 AM »
What next?   flyball governor?   Hit/miss version?   :ROFL:

A hit/miss! It's a popular engine and no doubt a lot of newbies are interested in it. Me for one.
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Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 07:09:12 PM »
I was doing a little searching on twin cylinder marine engines (that's right - I haven't made up my mind)...

Came across John's Paddleduck which led me to www.machinistblog.com where John's plans are available.

The site also has your EZ Build Engine.

Also on that site is hit-n-miss engine made from barstock material and a link to get free plans.
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Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 08:00:55 PM »
I was doing a little searching on twin cylinder marine engines (that's right - I haven't made up my mind)...

Came across John's Paddleduck which led me to www.machinistblog.com where John's plans are available.

The site also has your EZ Build Engine.

Also on that site is hit-n-miss engine made from barstock material and a link to get free plans.

I had been to that site some time ago but forgot that they had posted the EZ Engine.   They have plans for a combination tool for a mill that looks like something I need to make.

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2013, 08:33:27 PM »
Without the friendly prodding by Alan I might not have gone this next step.   Here is the double acting version of this little engine.  This will take a little more skill since the pistion rod / head / gland all  need to line up and have minimal friction from alignment issues.

Here is the piston.   .375" long x .5" diameter drilled through the center with a .125" hole.   The .125" stainless shaft then attaches to the end that I made of brass to connect to the linkage going to the crank pin.


IMG_5926 by black85vette, on Flickr


The combination head / gland is .375" thick.   The .125" hole for the piston rod needs to be drilled under size and then reamed to .125" and its placement in the center of the head and .375" down from the top is pretty critical.   This must be centered on the cylinder and parallel to it for the piston to travel without interference.   Then I drilled a hole half way through to connect to an air passage for this end of the cylinder.   Two more holes are drilled and tapped to bolt the head to the cylinder body.   I used 10-32 but other sizes would work.



IMG_5927 by black85vette, on Flickr



IMG_5928 by black85vette, on Flickr


A hole is drilled in the valve body to provide air to the second end of the cylinder.



IMG_5929 by black85vette, on Flickr


Here is the new head and cylinder body;



IMG_5930 by black85vette, on Flickr


These are the new parts;


IMG_5931 by black85vette, on Flickr


I will upload the video in just a few minutes.


« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 01:06:34 PM by black85vette »

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2013, 08:39:40 PM »
Here it is running.   Nice thing about double acting engines is how slow you can get them to run if everything is fit well.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRTpRsP7RNI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRTpRsP7RNI</a>

So there is a beginner engine with 4 valve configurations and using common components to reduce materials and most of it made from the .75" x 2" aluminum bar.   A mill is not mandatory but really nice when doing two flat mating surfaces like the head / cylinder.  However some sealant or gasket would do as well.

Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 09:25:45 PM »
Rick,
One thing I found hard to do with my first tries at engines was to bore a flat-bottomed hole. Why not take the simplification one step further: Make the cylinder a through bore and put a plate on the right end like the new one for the left end (only without a hole for the piston rod of course.)
Alan  :thinking:

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 09:49:46 PM »
Rick,
One thing I found hard to do with my first tries at engines was to bore a flat-bottomed hole. Why not take the simplification one step further: Make the cylinder a through bore and put a plate on the right end like the new one for the left end (only without a hole for the piston rod of course.)
Alan  :thinking:

You have excellent ideas!   :ThumbsUp:    I could do that and put the rear air connection on it as well.    Then the McCabe runner valve could also be just a bolt on to the rear of the engine.

Keep the ideas coming.

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 10:13:45 PM »
Another update and modification.   I liked the idea of boring through the cylinder.  Adding a piece to the rear gives some additional flexibility as well.   In the picture is the standard rear piece where I have moved the air connection.   You can use this for most of the engine configurations.    Then I made a rear piece to house the piston valve with the hole in the middle.    The same piston can be used in its own standalone valve body or in this one attached to the rear of the cylinder.  You just make the one piston for both uses.



IMG_5939 by black85vette, on Flickr


So there are now 5 possible configurations;

1. rotary valve
2. piston valve with hole in valve body
3. barbell piston valve in single acting
4. barbell piston valve in double acting
5. piston valve with hole mounted to rear of cylinder with a bell crank

Thinking about calling this the Modular Engine Sub-assembly System.   Or;  MESS for short.   Name of the build post should be "How to make a Mess".    :Lol:


Offline Alan Haisley

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2013, 06:10:18 AM »
Rick,
If a beginner wants more choices, he or she should go for something entirely different. I just can't think of anyway to MESS it up more.  :shrug:

BUT... The more I think about it, the more I'm bothered by using the model linkage for the bellcrank version. There must be some simple way of fabricating this linkage and allowing for the two degrees of freedom at the bell crank end. And a beginner certainly needs to learn to thread a rod as well as threading a clevis.
 :stir: :stir:
Alan
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 10:33:17 PM by Alan Haisley »

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2013, 12:36:22 AM »

BUT... The more I think about it, the more I'm bothered by using the model linkage for the bellcrank version. There must be some simple way of fabricating this linkage and allowing for the two degrees of freedom at the bell crank end. And a beginner certainly needs to learn to thread a rod as well as threading a clevis.
 :stir: :stir:
Alan

No problem.    :cheers:    I have also done it with .25" round rod and the same brass strap used elsewhere in the engine but just put a half twist in it.  You just have to make the hole in the end large enough.    I just wanted to play with the ball links and zero slop.

Anyone else have a simple solution?   How about for the pivot points?   I just used the screws to keep it easy.   But I  am open to other solutions also.

Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2013, 01:59:31 AM »
I can't help much...but I'm still a newbie...and what struck me when starting out was some of the terms.
'clevis' for example. I suspect many don't know what that means (I still don't really).

Some descriptions (at the risk of telling many how to 'suck eggs' as they say) is appreciated.

For that matter, the only reason I know what a bellcrank is from the old days when I use to fly control line planes.  ;D

Difficult I know. How much is too much?

Just a thought.
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Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2013, 02:25:39 AM »
Zee;  I think you are right about terms.   No need to worry about someone already knowing them.   Those who don't will learn and those who already know will just read a little faster.   I still get corrected frequently on parts of steam engines and always welcome it.   No need to go on looking ignorant if you don't have to!

I think a final full build thread should happen.   In it would be beginner basic things like; how to drill aluminum, how to tap straight, how to drill accurately, how to measure and layout, and other things we take for granted.

Look back over this thread and see if there are terms that should be explained or defined.

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2013, 02:36:47 AM »
Here you go Alan!   Just took some .062" brass stock and free handed it on the band saw to make a quick connecting rod.   Stuck it in the vise and twisted it 90 degrees.    Works like a champ and easy to do.


IMG_5940 by black85vette, on Flickr


This shot has the modular rear valve attached to the cylinder

Offline black85vette

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Re: Redo of Elmer's Standby for beginners
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2013, 06:27:43 PM »
Updated the drawings for the modular components.    Don't have the last engine with bell crank and rear valve drawn up yet.   Added those drawings as ezmodular4.jpg
« Last Edit: February 22, 2013, 02:14:44 PM by black85vette »

 

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