Author Topic: Another Shed/Workshop?  (Read 19760 times)

Online Jo

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Another Shed/Workshop?
« on: December 29, 2012, 08:07:04 AM »
I mentioned in my original thread about my workshop: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html that I had sufficient space behind my current garage/workshop to build another shed workshop. Well yesterday I took the tape measure out to see what was possible ;).

If I assume I want to leave say an 8ft clearance gap (for bringing models around into the play area) between this new building complex and the old garage I have 32ft of good building space. I don't want it too deep, the current workshop 21ft length is a bit long as it needs the lights on at the far end during dark winter's days. 16ft wide would fit nicely sort of ?corner to corner? to the main garage. But then I thought I could add an annex at right angles along the far boundary say 10ft wide by 20ft, which would allow the workshop area to increase if I wanted without have a visual impact on the garden :cartwheel:.

Now a 32ft by 16ft workshop is a little bit big to heat so maybe I need to split it up. I definitely need a decent pair of doors on the end to allow large machine tools to be brought in, double glazing. Then there is the need for a storage area for all of those come in handies :whoohoo:.

Early thoughts any suggestions from anyone? And yes the double doors will have vehicular access ;).

Jo 
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Offline ths

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2012, 09:45:55 AM »
Hi Jo,

I am also contemplating a new shed, and recently had the site levelled and put in vehicular access. I am planning a concrete slab with in-slab heating, as I find warmth to be useful! Where I live it gets cold enough to want (but perhaps not warrant) such a luxury, and would effect it with a hydronic system. Even in winter, we are not (generally) short of sunshine for water heating. Anyway, thems me druthers.

Not at all being familiar with how your site is set up, if possible have it facing south (the opposite of my southern hemisphere north) to maximise sunlight and heat storage. A building that never sees the sun will never be pleasant to work in. Be careful with the double garage doors, very difficult to make airtight, and harder to keep them that way, no matter what they're made of. They can look great, though. Services are very important, power, water, telephone.

I'm sure you'll get lots of advice from here as everyone builds their own dream workshop for you, so may I suggest design by committee? You may be allowed final say.

Hugh.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2012, 10:14:38 AM »
Jo are you saying a new 16x32 or adding 16x16 to your existing to give 16x32 workshop area plus the car parking space?

Regarding the 8ft gap I would consider roofing that over then you have a covered area where you could do things like welding, forging and steaming engines which would be well ventilated but out of the rain.

The main thing is to allow room to set up your next project like this

http://www.stationroadsteam.com/News%20archive/July%202004/cp/pages/cp-f.htm

J

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2012, 10:24:38 AM »
No it would be a totally separate 32ft by 16ft building, plus the extension. With potentially a 40ft by 15ft length that could be covered which would be for vehicular access/wood storage, you could park cars in it if you wanted to but then I don't use one of the existing bays in the garage for car parking. As for car parking: I think the record was 18 2CVs parked in my front garden, assuming you count 2CVs as cars.

 ;D That is the sort of thing I was thinking of, except that I wasn't thinking of cramming the models under construction in the same area as the tools. And I was thinking of keeping the existing workshop in the garage and adding another couple of areas in the new building.

Jo
« Last Edit: December 29, 2012, 10:54:57 AM by Jo »
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Offline pgp001

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2012, 11:06:06 AM »
I would try and organise it so you have dedicated activities in certain areas.
I mean all grinders and linishers together, all woodwork together. Painting in its own area etc.

Phil

Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2012, 01:25:13 PM »
Wot Phil Says!

...and I need a sketch...but I'm all for more space!

Dave
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Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2012, 02:19:16 PM »
Outline sketch as requested. I have added a possible position for double doors to provide vehicular access on the end of the main area.

Jo
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Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2012, 03:12:43 PM »
OK....so what's in the Courtyard...? 8)

Looks good from here.....are you going to roof over the middle as an open shelter?

Dave
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Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2012, 03:51:23 PM »
The courtyard is for  :embarassed: flower beds and a central flat grass for outside play area, or it could be paved if the need arose. Roofing it over would be a wind trap as the prevailing wind is south westerlies.

Down the back of the main garage would not suffer from the wind so that 43ft could be "roofed" but if I need covered work space I do have a 20ft by 23ft area in the main garage available if I leave my car out, so is it worth it?

Jo
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Offline pgp001

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2012, 04:27:40 PM »
Jo

That's a factory not a workshop  ;D

Phil

Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2012, 04:36:39 PM »
The courtyard is for  :embarassed: flower beds and a central flat grass for outside play area, or it could be paved if the need arose. Roofing it over would be a wind trap as the prevailing wind is south westerlies.

Down the back of the main garage would not suffer from the wind so that 43ft could be "roofed" but if I need covered work space I do have a 20ft by 23ft area in the main garage available if I leave my car out, so is it worth it?

Jo
?
To answer that Jo, I would need to understand exactly what it is you want to do....so let me turn it around....would YOU find it worth it?
Is your required answer based on return on investment monitarily?...or intellectually?

I mean....building model engines isn't done for the money....unless you holding out on us?  If it gets you where your "floatin the boat"...thats what you need to do!   Right?


Dave
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2012, 05:16:37 PM »
I don't like the idea of several separate "shops" you will be forever flitting back and forth between them which also adds to teh problem of heating - do you heat them all or have one hot and then feel cold every half an hour when you go back into the other.

Having had a look at your workshop on photobucket my thoughts would be. (may be worth posting them here so people can see what you have to work with)

1. Make the new large building your garage and store the motorbikes, lawn tractor and the car if you currently house that all in the new main building. Have a covered in link to this from the existing.

2. Move the big Colchester, Harrison and any other big machines into the front of the existing building. Add an insulated stud wall behind one of the garage doors and draftproof & insulate the other

3.This will free up space in the current main workshop where you still have comfy milling and turning facilities and room for an assembled traction engine(s) Keep this as the main warm room to work in.

4. If you still feel the need for space then add double doors onto the end of the existing building and have an extension to house the hot & dirty work like welding, soldering, grinding, linishing, etc

J

PS Or just work in 11x8 shed like I do and let the rest out to asylam seakers to pay for your casting habbit.   :ThumbsUp:

Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2012, 05:28:34 PM »
The old addage that a wise friend of mine used....about shops...

A home shop needs to be :

Close
Comforatable
and Well lit

I like Jason's approach Jo....I think he knows your shop layout better...I especially agree with the going in an out part being a real pain...1 place is good with a sheltered area for the dirty stuff....wish I had that....right now it's my driveway!

Dave
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Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2012, 05:37:49 PM »
You are missing an important point that Cherry Hinds once told me: "There comes a point in one's life where you need two workshops". Let's call it a risk reduction exercise: a workshop is a very personal space :embarassed:.

No the garage will remain as a garage for cars, I have two bays and they are easily accessable by cars with easy turning, this new building the 18ft wide access is not really suitable for daily use. And I do keep contemplating a little sports car for playing with in my retirement ;D.

Jo
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Offline DaveH

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2012, 06:27:07 PM »

 And I do keep contemplating a little sports car for playing with in my retirement ;D .

Jo
Mmm............... could be a short lived retirement  :lolb:

Go and talk to an Architect - they are a wealth of info. Unless of course it is a shed.  :LittleDevil:
 :cheers:
DaveH
 

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2012, 06:30:19 PM »
I don't like the idea of several separate "shops" you will be forever flitting back and forth between them which also adds to the problem of heating - do you heat them all or have one hot and then feel cold every half an hour when you go back into the other. I was looking at log stoves for the new workshop they are extremely effective in the house and a single decent stove could heat the entire area using waste wood  that my friendly woodsman keeps dumping at my house

1. Make the new large building your garage and store the motorbikes, lawn tractor and the car if you currently house that all in the new main building. Have a covered in link to this from the existing. It is over 100ft from that building to the first door on the house it is too far on a cold winter's night to want to park a car and walk to the house. I had considered using the new shed extension for the bikes, lawn tractor, potting shed and fruit/veg storage. 

2. Move the big Colchester, Harrison and any other big machines into the front of the existing building. Add an insulated stud wall behind one of the garage doors and draftproof & insulate the other I was planing on adding another mill a bridgeport the existing garage does not have the head height

 :ShakeHead: You missed the point for the entire workshop/shed.

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »
Ok now have a better idea of how youuse the existing and what you want to keep as is. So:

Front of existing stays as is as car parking and is partitioned off from the workshop at the rear like I think it is now.

New main building has lawn tractor, bikes etc at the front and divided to give a big machine shop at the rear.

Existing shop then has more space and with the machines currently in that you can do the stationary engines and most of the BB1s.

Still like the idea of a hot & dirty area this could be the small annex or a link building between the two larger ones.

Watch how much you increase the height as you will start needing planning if the ridge is over 4.0m tall. Also you start getting restrictions when you get to less than 1.0m from boundary so again may need to be a fraction narrower.

Agree the wood burners are ideal especially if you have a free supply of wood and it will continue although they don't light themselves 1/2hrs before you want to get into the workshop so its warm & ready to go.
Some would say you already have two workshops if you include the house facilities ;)

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2012, 07:15:34 PM »
New main building has lawn tractor, bikes etc at the front and divided to give a big machine shop at the rear. No only the extension as only the end is south facing so it will be cold, the main building will have maximum south facing = light

Existing shop then has more space and with the machines currently in that you can do the stationary engines and most of the BB1s. It has more than enough for me ;D

Still like the idea of a hot & dirty area this could be the small annex or a link building between the two larger ones. ;) It is currently in the spare bay in the garage, the major boiler hearth is outside on the back of the garage wall

Watch how much you increase the height as you will start needing planning if the ridge is over 4.0m tall. Also you start getting restrictions when you get to less than 1.0m from boundary so again may need to be a fraction narrower. I know I used to be a parish councillor, but this is a boundary onto agricultural land which means a different set of rules  ;) and the main garage only has a 4 m ridge this new building will be "smaller"

Some would say you already have two workshops if you include the house facilities ;) 

:ShakeHead: Still missed the point of it.

Jo
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 07:00:15 AM by Jo »
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Offline black85vette

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2012, 07:31:02 PM »
I am having shop envy and you have not even built it yet!   :Lol:

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2012, 07:46:47 PM »
I just hope Jo does not see the "Kitchen workshop" thread  :ShakeHead:

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2012, 07:50:05 PM »
Sorry I have and I had to move my Cowells out of the kitchen it scratched the table >:(. It now has to live in the library whilst it waits for a friend so that together they can make little engines :embarassed:.

Jo
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Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2012, 11:05:00 AM »
Having had a look at your workshop on photobucket my thoughts would be. (may be worth posting them here so people can see what you have to work with)

If any one is interested this is my workshop: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html but I was not planning on this being my workshop.

Jo
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Offline PJW

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2012, 12:02:15 PM »
Hi Jo, If I had a choice My workshop would be joined to the house so I could run a radiator in there so I could work in the warm through the winter, i do have a fan heater in my shed but it is still cold so I cant manage a long session out there!
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Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2012, 12:26:17 PM »
Hi Peter,

One of the advantages of having a lot of machinery is that they store up the heat. And where I get free electricity, when the sun shines 8),  running a fan heater often does not actually cost anything. The result is often my workshop is hotter than my house especially in autumn and spring. This last week a single 2kW fan heater run for 4 hours a day (= 50p a day) has been sufficient to keep the workshop up to temperature.

Adding further extensions to the house requires planning permission. Where as I can cover half my garden with buildings without so long as I obey the not more than 4m at the ridge rule.

The other advantage of a seperate workshop/shed is it can be somewhere to "hide" from the rest of the household. ;)

Jo
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Offline Mosey

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2012, 02:36:47 PM »
I mentioned in my original thread about my workshop: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,839.0.html that I had sufficient space behind my current garage/workshop to build another shed workshop. Well yesterday I took the tape measure out to see what was possible ;).

If I assume I want to leave say an 8ft clearance gap (for bringing models around into the play area) between this new building complex and the old garage I have 32ft of good building space. I don't want it too deep, the current workshop 21ft length is a bit long as it needs the lights on at the far end during dark winter's days. 16ft wide would fit nicely sort of ?corner to corner? to the main garage. But then I thought I could add an annex at right angles along the far boundary say 10ft wide by 20ft, which would allow the workshop area to increase if I wanted without have a visual impact on the garden :cartwheel:.

Now a 32ft by 16ft workshop is a little bit big to heat so maybe I need to split it up. I definitely need a decent pair of doors on the end to allow large machine tools to be brought in, double glazing. Then there is the need for a storage area for all of those come in handies :whoohoo:.

JO,
Please tell us why you want to build this shed? :happyreader: :stir: :Doh: :noidea:
What do you want to do there? (in as much detail as you can)
How would this relate to your overall shop needs?
Please put down the soft needs (such as warm, light, comfy, hide-out, etc.) as well as the usual quantifiable ones (2 lathes, storage, electric, refrig,  etc.)

This will help you and us to understand what you should build.
Mosey




Early thoughts any suggestions from anyone? And yes the double doors will have vehicular access ;).

Jo

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2013, 11:37:51 AM »
Ok: Why do I want to build the shed?

Well I had always intended on putting the luxury workshop/shed in the corner of the garden the one in the back of the garage is just the starter. There is the risk, I know it is very small, that there will be in the future more than just myself making things and there is nothing worse than having someone in your workshop borrowing your tools. Best as Cherry Hinds told me to make sure you have separate workshops.

What do I personally build? Model Engines, Model ploughing engines and Locomotives in various sizes and scales. But that someone else may want to build might include a kit car, vintage motorcycles, bigger traction/ploughing engines :Love: or they may wish to work in strange materials (wood :hellno:). Storage: I have reduced my motorcycle collection down to two, they could be stored in there and there is always a multitude of other things and likely as not model storage that is going to be needed in the future because the house is already slowly filling up and that is just with my models :cartwheel:

Soft needs: Currently I have: 5 lathes, 3 milling machines, 2 shapers, 3 drilling machines, engraver, 2 cutter grinders, 3 8ft benches, an assembly bench.... Best look at my thread on the workshop for further details. I plan to extend this further for myself with a bridgeport, Aceria F1, possibly CNC = why limit the possibilities just because of space.  And then you have to add the contents of an as yet underfined second workshop set up. So yes ability to maintain a warm working environment, light enough for detailed work are all needed. I wouldn't anticipate the need for a fridge (it is afterall the UK) , but we are talking about the need to have a hiding hole, me from him, him from me, hence the two workshops not one, preferably in separate buildings (to discourage tool borrowing ;)). 

Why now? Well my builder friend is short of work, if I wait a few years then it will cost more and my finances are less likely to be able to fund it. And the corner of my garden is winding me up as it looks a mess. 

Edit: And she who moves into the luxury workshop first is more likley to keep it. As they say posession is 9/10th of the law ;D

Jo
 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 11:51:56 AM by Jo »
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2013, 12:00:48 PM »
Jo do you envisage keeping all the machines in one (your) workshop or would you keep say the big colchester and bridgeport in one and the smaller more used machines in teh new shop?

Also what form of construction are you thinking of? The old one looks like brick from the photos. I would be more inclined to go for a timber structure so you can get the maximum insulation within the wall depth. Say 4-6" studs with 70mm kingspan/celotex type ridgid insulation between studs and another 25mm layer on the inside then cover with plasterboard or 1/2" ply.

If the big machines stay in teh garage then a sturdy timber floor would be OK which would again allow for insulation, if you want all the toys then think about having part solid part timber floor so most of the time your toes will be toasty

Lastly I think I must be careful here as I do have a need to work with wood and have always fancied building a Fisher Fury if my current garage was not full of woodworking hachines :paranoia:

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2013, 12:52:59 PM »
No the larger machine tools could go where was more appropriate. At the moment the workshop is tight on head space for a Bridgeport but a bit of wood work could sort that.

My inclination is towards brick or block work but that is because I do not understand the implications of a timber building because my knowledge of wood is poor. I enjoy laying bricks myself but my builder friend's brick laying is... well lets say it looks better under cladding or some sort of rendering. He is not a carpenter so I don't know if it would be within his capabilities to build it but his old partner was but he should have retired by now, so timber may mean finding someone else to do it. But would a timber floor be suitable for say kit car building or taking the weight of a 6" traction engine? Or would that be forced to take up the spare garage bay?

:o Fisher Fury:  I can understand your need. I put a deposit down to buy something similar about 15 years ago :embarassed:.

Jo
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Online sco

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2013, 01:10:26 PM »
I ummed and ahhed about a Fisher Fury about 10 years ago but then stumbled on a Strathcarron which was impossible to resist  ;D

Perhaps we should have a thread on non-model engine interests?
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2013, 01:24:12 PM »
As I said a sturdy timeber floor would certainly take a kit car but possibly not a 6" engine but that would depend on the subject. A tractor like the GMT may be OK but not a half size BB1.

By sturdy I would be looking at intermediate sleeper walls so span no greater than 1.2m and bring the joist centres down to 300mm rather than the usual 400mm. My own workshop is on a reinforced concrete slab, bearers on 400cts and then double layer of ply topped off with vinyl tile. If I did it again I would add some insulation as well.

The other alternative is to have a "heavy end" where the big machines and toys can stand but have the bench area and the lighter machines where you will be standing sitting most of the time with a timber floor but all at the same finished level.

For the walls I would have a couple of courses of brickwork and then set your studwork on that with a DPC between like this.  You could get the wall up in a day with timber which is a big advantage and a well insulated timber building stays much warmer. The outsid ecan be clad with weatehr boarding in natural oak as this garage or you can get some good man made boards is you prefer the painted look but don't want to paint.

I would also consider a couple of Velux type roof lights to get some daylight into the middle of the workshop.

Having had Subaru Imprezas since 1997 I don't really have a need for speed that a kit car can give and they are a lot more practical.

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 01:33:02 PM »
As I said a sturdy timeber floor would certainly take a kit car but possibly not a 6" engine but that would depend on the subject. A tractor like the GMT may be OK but not a half size BB1.

 :hellno: I was not envisaging me building a 1/2 scale ploughing engine.

Who cares about speed? It is the handling that counts ;D. I had the saleman wetting himself when I took a Lotus Elise out for a test drive, he did 60 mph on the outside of a tight curve on the way out to show that the car stuck to the road and the biker in me brought it back at 70 on the inside of the same curve. But I am now older and could get to enjoy the idea of a chauffeur to do such things for me.

Jo
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Offline Mosey

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 01:50:12 PM »
Yeah, Daniel Craig as the chauffeur?

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 01:51:34 PM »
 :noidea: Sorry missed the meaning of that.

Jo
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Offline Mosey

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 01:56:13 PM »
James Bond to drive you around and stir the heart?

And, I expect to see a Schaublin 102VN next to the F1.

Online Jo

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 02:01:36 PM »
Stir the heart: Only engines, tools and castings have that effect on me any more. :offtopic:

Schaubin... I may find a need 8).

Jo
---
Edit: had to admit to tools and castings :slap:
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 02:22:36 PM by Jo »
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Offline Stuart

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 05:11:46 PM »
As I said a sturdy timeber floor would certainly take a kit car but possibly not a 6" engine but that would depend on the subject. A tractor like the GMT may be OK but not a half size BB1.

 :hellno: I was not envisaging me building a 1/2 scale ploughing engine.

Who cares about speed? It is the handling that counts ;D. I had the saleman wetting himself when I took a Lotus Elise out for a test drive, he did 60 mph on the outside of a tight curve on the way out to show that the car stuck to the road and the biker in me brought it back at 70 on the inside of the same curve. But I am now older and could get to enjoy the idea of a chauffeur to do such things for me.

Jo

I know what you mean about handling I to have made a few car sales men/women go white on test drives

it comes down to a few manx Nortons and a course at Castle Donington race track in single seaters ,its the corners that show who can drive anyone can honk it down the straight bits
best lap on the club circuit ( 2 miles) was 1:21

but alas I am a bit old for that now


but still enjoy my M sport beemer

Stuart
My aim is for a accurate part with a good finish

Offline Mosey

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 05:17:15 PM »
The older I get,  :old: :old: :old: the faster I was  :mischief: :mischief: :mischief:

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 05:31:14 PM »
 :offtopic:

I am looking for advice and suggestions for a new workshop.

Jo
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Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 05:51:29 PM »
Jo,
I built my shop with a 6" slab with reinforcement. It is 30'x30'. The main shop is 10x30 and as it is central Texas the winters are mild so I went with a drive through section which is 10x30. The rest of the foot print is 2 storage areas with a welding bay in the middle. I have a second floor for light work which is also 10x30 across the drive through.

I like high over heads so i went with 9' walls. So I can move machinery I welded I beams to square steel columns in the corners. I have a track that leads to the front double doors, and the end beam leads to the door to the drive through. I have a homemade portable gantry that lives in the drive through so I can self off load all but really large machines.

The floor is end grain pine 4"x 4" about 1.5" thick. I did 2"x6" stud walls so i could add extra insulation. I need AC in the summer and a window unit cools the main shop nicely and I use a single oil filled heater in the winter.

Go For it I would not be happy in a converted garage.

Dan
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 05:55:18 PM by Dan Rowe »
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 05:52:50 PM »
As I said a sturdy timber floor would certainly take a kit car ......

By sturdy I would be looking at intermediate sleeper walls so span no greater than 1.2m and bring the joist centres down to 300mm rather than the usual 400mm. My own workshop is on a reinforced concrete slab, bearers on 400cts and then double layer of ply topped off with vinyl tile. If I did it again I would add some insulation as well.

The other alternative is to have a "heavy end" where the big machines and toys can stand but have the bench area and the lighter machines where you will be standing sitting most of the time with a timber floor but all at the same finished level.

For the walls I would have a couple of courses of brickwork and then set your studwork on that with a DPC between like this.  You could get the wall up in a day with timber which is a big advantage and a well insulated timber building stays much warmer. The outside can be clad with weather boarding in natural oak as this garage or you can get some good man made boards is you prefer the painted look but don't want to paint.

I would also consider a couple of Velux type roof lights to get some daylight into the middle of the workshop.

You will have to forgive me Jason, my experience with wooden buildings are those cheap sheds that you buy in DIY centres. I had not thought of what I think you are proposing of getting a professional to build me a timber building.

Reinforcing the slab would be a must at the potential dimensions I am talking about. I missed the trick with the insulation on the garage floor but with the heavy machine tools in there it may be just as well. (I don't suffer with cold feet, that is a problem that you fellas suffer with I seem to recall :o. )

Velux roof lights implies a high ceiling height. I have one of these "feature" windows in my bathroom and I would swear all the heat is up there rather than lower down. Having said that I was considering re-roofing the existing garage in concrete tiles and putting a couple of Velux in that but in the garage end because of the darkness/depth problem. If I went to the full possible size then the 10ft wide end could have windows down both sides (I think the far side it may be best to leave them at a higher level for security). So it is only the 16ft wide area that may be short of light.

Oak cladding would look nice and probably last the 50 years I need of this building. What about roofing?

Lastly: How does the prices of brick/block work vs Timber frame stack up?

Jo
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 06:31:31 PM by Jo »
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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 06:03:14 PM »
Go For it I would not be happy in a converted garage.

Dan

The main garage was designed for either two parking bays plus the workshop or to enable four cars to fit two deep with the end two being in a working area. The workshop area I have has home made stud walling which is displaying some of my high quality woodworking skills :slap:. But it works.

What ever I build is height limited by our UK planning rules to 4m high. So a second storey is out but then I am not short of land to build on so there would be no reason to go up.

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 06:44:34 PM »
Yes it would be a purpose made unit just like a small timber framed house, cost wise would be cheaper than rendered block or cavity. Can't be sure on exact figures as I don't do a lot of that type of work, that garage was just for regular clients so I took it on.

Roofing wise you will be governed by the pitch of the roof to some extent, as the width goes up you will have to reduce the pitch and/or wall height to keep to the ridge limit. The bridgeport would be best sited on the gable wall below the ridge. Felt Shingles are not a bad option on a low pitch roof and easy enough to do yourself.

Although its nice to have windows in all walls it does start to eat up wall space which could be better used for storage, maybe a run of short windows at the top of the wall and just ones to look out of on the other.

J

Offline Maryak

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 07:19:18 PM »
Jo,

Why not go for brick veneer?............Oz term for outside brick wall tied to a timber frame on the inside with heaps of room for insulation. Our house is constructed this way and all exterior walls are fully insulated and its on a concrete slab. The slab can be re-enforced where larger machines/ toys go and duckboards for where you stand. The slab can also be used as a heat sink if you are so inclined.

Food for thought?

Best Regards
Bob
Если вы у Тетушки были яйца, она была бы Дядюшкой

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 08:07:51 PM »
. (I don't suffer with cold feet, that is a problem that you fellas suffer with I seem to recall :o. )

Sorry Jo I missed that bit. Yes its a man thing for which there are two main reasons

1. We generally don't wear high heals so have a larger contact area with the cold floor

2. We don't have varacose veins to carry extra blood down to our feet


 :mischief: :mischief: :mischief: :mischief: :mischief: :mischief:

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 08:50:35 PM »
Jason,

Think positively women still have nice warm bits 8) ask any married man but cold feet :ShakeHead:

Jo
« Last Edit: January 03, 2013, 09:38:07 PM by Jo »
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Offline Anzaniste

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2013, 12:58:21 AM »
And I do keep contemplating a little sports car for playing with in my retirement ;D.

Jo

Go for it. I just bought a Mazda MX5 for ?910..
 At that price you don't have to worry about it and it just got MOT today with no notices on it.. Can't be bad. :LittleDevil:

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2013, 07:33:05 AM »
 :offtopic:

I am looking for advice on and suggestions for new Shed/Workshop.

Jo
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Offline zeeprogrammer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2013, 12:22:35 PM »
Not sure if this is helpful...but when I think of my dream shop I also think about how to use the ceiling.
Good lighting certainly, but also hooks, outlets (with a means to keep the cable from popping out), moveable lighting or magnifiers, tracks, pulleys, extra storage. That sort of thing.

Other simple things...fire extinguisher placement, first aid kit, phone lines, wi-fi router or cabling.
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Offline propforward

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2013, 01:54:11 PM »
Well, it's not like I am an expert by any means, but here are some thoughts which I expect you have already considered, but haven't seen all of them specifically mentioned

1. 9' ceilings are a must in a workshop. I almost went with 8, and I'm glad I changed it. Now I am using it I realise 8' would have been a problem.
2. My shop is roughly 15 X 30, similar size to what you are contemplating. The ceiling type heater unit I have is propane fed, and heats the space very nicely, quite economically. Give serious consideration to how you are going to heat it before building. I almost went with electric heat - expensive!
3. Insulate the snot out of it. I put in more than the minimum amount required by local code. The cash up front now is worth it. I can heat that size shop in the deep Minnesota winter quite readily.
4. Although it is a shed / shop, try and take the approach of building it with sheetrock (plasterboard) insulated walls and ceiling, with vapour barrier. It will then be a dry, cosy, bright and light space that is easy to heat and cool.
5. Security - how many windows? I chose none. No need for people to peek in and see what tools are in there. But natural light is nice too. However, windows get in the way of shelves.
6. Layout of electrical circuits - figure out your requirements and get dedicated circuits run for the various tools. Maybe situate the air compressor outside the main workshop (I did) so the noise doesn't drive you nuts.
7. Floor - concrete is recommended if you can afford it. Consider having it epoxy painted. Good for oil spills and looks super!

8. Paint it all before moving anything in - nice bright walls and ceiling are a positive delight once you get to actually go in there. A well lit space is great.

In general, if you can afford it, getting all that lot in up front will pay dividends in the long run.

That's what I have off the top of my head anyway.

Good luck!
Stuart

Forging ahead regardless.

Offline Maryak

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2013, 11:21:54 PM »
Not sure if this is helpful...but when I think of my dream shop I also think about how to use the ceiling.

I have an I beam and trolley running lengthwise on the ceiling from which I hang a 1/2 ton chain block. This enables heavy items, (up to 500kg), to be easily moved into and out of the shop. If this is of use you will need to think about the strength of the ceiling joists.

Best Regards
Bob
Если вы у Тетушки были яйца, она была бы Дядюшкой

Offline Mosey

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2013, 11:58:53 PM »
I recently put modular vinyl tiles down over the concrete in my shop. They are the ones from Home Depot and have jigsaw-puzzle like interlocking edges, so you just lay them down dry and they stay. They can be picked up and relocated at will. Mine are medium gray, which is a great color for finding little dropped parts without showing the dirt. And the big payoff is that it looks so nice that I vacuum almost every time I go there. That avoids the cat eating the nice shiny curly chips, which therefore avoids my being thrown out by her patron, SWMBO.
And, it makes it a nice place just to be in.

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2013, 11:27:27 AM »
 :embarassed: I've marked out the layout I mentioned in the garden, it does not look as big as I thought it would be.

Edit: I also took took the trouble of measuring the inside of my current workshop which is 21ft by 14ft ;). I would assume that by the time space was lost to insulation the 16ft is likely to come down to about 14ft, so not that dissimilar in size.

Jo

« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 11:52:17 AM by Jo »
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Offline propforward

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2013, 12:19:14 PM »
By the way, in looking around the forum I noticed a post of yours Jo, describing the moisture issues of gas heat. The ceiling mounted propane heater I use is exhausted to the outside of the building, so the moisture is not an issue at all. Having a heater running on a thermostat so that the shop is at a maintained temperature is really wonderful. It is luxurious in many ways, but once you experience it, it is a must have. I find it doesn't cost too much to heat the shop, because I actually keep it at a cool 57 degrees F. I find that better for working in than 70.

It looks like I use about 200 gallons of propane a year to keep the shop at that temperature.

In summer I use a window style airconditioner (8500 BTU capacity) which is permanently mounted through the wall as additional cooling, but I hardly ever have to run it. With no windows letting sun in, the good insulation keeps it very acceptable. I run the A/C a bit to take the edge off, so to speak, and that size unit cycles nicely on "low" for a 15X30 space.

Just some background info in case you want to consider any of those options.
Stuart

Forging ahead regardless.

Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2013, 12:50:09 PM »
What Prop Said!!!!!

I've had a direct vent gas heater for a number of years....and it works great!

Dave
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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2013, 01:03:52 PM »
Propane is 60p litre over here, so using your figures that is ?540 a year to heat the workshop. I think not: my total house/workshop fuel bill per year is only ?400. My fire wood source is dirt cheap and most of the time totally free 8).

I just had another measure.... I could make the 10ft by 20ft extension wider say to 14ft without any real impact. Maybe even make it the same width as the other side so up to 16ft if I wanted to  :thinking:.

Jo
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Offline propforward

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2013, 01:13:00 PM »
Well, the same kinds of heaters are available in natural gas too, if that is available, and might be cheaper. Bear in mind that I am heating in substantially colder climate, I would expect your fuel bill to be considerably less - I would suggest half (or less even) - of what I run.

Nevertheless, the wood fired heat is a winner at the price.

There are other options to consider too, various pellet heaters and so on that burn fuels such as wood (corn pellet heaters are getting popular here too), that are automatic (to an extent) and designed to run continuously so that you can maintain a steady heat. It's really the controlled constant heat bit that is so nice, the specific method has to be chosen to suit the locale and available fuels and such.
Stuart

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2013, 02:00:12 PM »
Well, the same kinds of heaters are available in natural gas too, if that is available,

 :o Gas piped to the house, wonders of the modern age. Sorry :ShakeHead: I live in the middle of a National park = no gas supply, minimual mobile phone signal, minimual internet bandwidth & up to 1930 they were still drawing water from the well in the garden. When I first moved in electricity also seemed to be rationed but they seemed to have sorted that one now.

For me, when the sun is shining, the cheapest fuel of all is electricity  they pay me silly money for everything I generate, even if I use it. So the log burners only have to pick up the heating challenge on the dull days 8).

Jo
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Offline propforward

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Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2013, 02:14:52 PM »
Sounds like where I live, which is why I have tank propane. Kewl.  In fact, my water does come out of a well - but via a pump.

I guess what I was really driving at is having controlled heat going, such that the shop is always at temperature, rather than having to go out and warm it up before starting anything, is a key item (for me). Being able to just head on out there at any time is really, really super.

It sounds like you're close to having the layout and size pretty much sorted now.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2013, 03:25:51 PM by propforward »
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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2013, 09:33:52 AM »
A little more research towards the new build:

Concensus from my vehicle restoration friends is that I need to allow the first 20ft of the 16ft (14ft ish after insulation) if the new shed is to be used for a kit car and it might be worth considering roller doors or up and over to avoid loosing the access gap (suggestion is that the roller door may be easier to seal?). The length being to allow for engine crane movements and width for a preparation area on the sunny side of the main area, with access door and windows.

The second option is to allow the build to happen in the spare bay of the main garage which would allow a 20ft deep by 21ft wide area once my car is dropped out. Problem being that if a car is going to go in and out there isn't really enough spare space for a decent preparation area unless that utilised the current workshop area. Which would force me to move into the new building >:D
----
Back to the new build: So that leaves a minuscule 10ft by 14ft at the end for a machine shop :hellno:. So it looks like the side extension will be needed for the workshop.

Jo
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Offline steamer

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #59 on: January 08, 2013, 11:48:12 AM »
Agree about the roller door.  They seal well
I have a 2 inch thick foam core insulated door that is about 15 years old
and it works well here.

Dave
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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #60 on: January 08, 2013, 12:24:24 PM »
So looking at the available space, and a requirement for two seperate areas, something like this is pheasible. The western side would have to have high level windows for security.

The outer workshop is having a large impact on the inner one. It might be better to leave it as two areas with the second workshop only using the 18ft by 14ft extension :thinking:

Jo
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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2013, 12:07:53 PM »
Finally it looks like I have some progress, the builder is due on Sunday to look at the new workshop plan :whoohoo:.

I have been reviewing the design with various fellas I know who have different hobby needs and the general agreement is to stick with the full length workshop with the end being storage for models and parts.

A partition between the 16ft sq end could be added if required but that would make heating with the wood burner a problem. The full length means it can be left in the extension area and normal sized burner would be adequate. If the workshop was restricted to only the 16ft sq end than the wood burner is likely to be overwhelming.

Any further thoughts?

Jo
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2013, 12:37:03 PM »
Well being one of the Fellas that has seen the lie of the land just a few suggestions

Consider sliding doors between the two workshops, it would be a shame to have to roll a car etc out or have the back tight up against the garage doors if you want to open the internal double doors.

I'd want to add a bit more insulation to the walls, probably by battening the inside and adding 50mm Kingspan/Celotex

Will there be a separate woodstore or you could carry the garage roof out like a cat slide roof all along one able to stack wood under.

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2013, 12:59:08 PM »
Hi Jason,

Good idea, I hadn't thought of sliding doors internally, I am sure Norm would love knocking them up for me :cheers:
You can never have too much insulation.

Wood store: I had thought of putting a long one hard against the boundary using some of the material that will come available from the existing buildings. The current 10ft deep one is too deep and the wildlife moves in before I have cleared it out. I also have a tendency to stack it too high :-[ I think I currently have about 4 years of wood at my current usage. As you know I never say no ;D.

Jo
« Last Edit: February 06, 2013, 05:29:13 PM by Jo »
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Another Shed/Workshop?
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2013, 01:15:00 PM »
Actually Jo ask your man (men) if they can do pocket doors as this will leave you the max amount of wall space, just don't use long screws when you fix anything to the walls that the doors slide into.

I thought you may be going to cut up the old log store to get another years worth of fuel :ThumbsUp:

 

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