Lister D Compressed Air Engine

[cfellows]

My Bessemer Oil Field engine is taking a lot of design time and not affording me much shop time.  At the moment, I'm waiting on a 1/16" NPT tap and die set, so I decided to start on another engine that would let me make some chips while I'm not able to work on the Bessemer.

This is a compressed air powered engine, 3/4" bore and 3/4" stroke.  It will be as close to lookin like a Lister D engine as I can get.  I've always had a fondness for the Lister D because of it's simple, utilitarian design.  It will be a 4 stroke engine and will use my slave exhaust valve with a cam actuated inlet valve.  Here is a picture of a full size model which has a 3" bore and 3" stoke.



Here are some pictures of the block that I've started...







The block is made from 2" square aluminum bar stock and is about 3.625" tall.  It will have some further shaping done on the outside once I finish all the internal machine work.

Chuck

[zeeprogrammer]

I'll be watching this one too Chuck. Looks very interesting.

[steamer]

I like it Chuck!
Im following along!

Dave

[AussieJimG]

This looks like another of your interesting projects Chuck, I will be following along.

Jim

[Jo]

I will be watching with interest.

I have one of the big brothers to the D, a TVO engine sitting in the stable with a very pretty sludge pump with over head rocking arms attached .

Jo

[Jasonb]

I'll also be interested to watch this one evolve. Several times I have considered making one as the rectangular shape is a good starting point but it would have been IC. Maybe if I sent Jo down the garden with a tape measure things would be easier

J

[Jo]

Jason: I think that you might find my TVO engine a little bigger than the D although the designs are very similar the carboration arrangement on the TVO has two fuel tanks which other than the physical size is the only indication on the outside to the difference. Tell you what Jason I will generously let you bring your own tape measure and I will even let you hold the HT lead   when I turn her over, just to make sure the mag is still working 

Chuck: If you want something for yours to drive the sludge pump on mine is not a bad choice. The crank is dog clutched on to a nice little gear box with skew bevels in it (you could get away with normal bevels which are easy to cut) and then it has all the advantages of a rocking beam to watch, without the hassle of having to fire up a boiler and then you can dump the feed pipe into a can of water and have water moving around as an added attraction .

Jo

[IanR]

Some Ds were built as petrol/paraffin engines, a friend of mine has one. What air pressure are you planning to run at to make the cooling water steam?

[wlb]

I am another one watching as my first stationary engine was a Lister "D" I now Have a Hartop "M" type but it will be going in the new year and stick to the small ones

[arnoldb]

Nice one Chuck 

The D's are quite plentiful here in Namibia and in constant use by farmers; mainly for driving water pumps.  I've spent my share of time cranking the handles on some to get them started...  Sometimes to the accompaniment of "not-so-nice" words.  They can be buggers to start, but when they run they're rock solid dependable.

Kind regards, Arnold

[Jo]

I have just been looking through my library and found a few books on the original Lister D:

1, "The History and development of the Lister D Type".  by David Edgington.

2, Technical Specification and Data Booklet: Overhauling Lister D & DK Type engines. by Lister & Co Ltd.

3, Instruction and Spare Parts List: Lister Types D & DK Petrol and Vapouring Oil Engines. By Lister & Co Ltd

So if you have any queries I will see if they can provide the answers.

Jo

[Jo]

This is the engine and pump set I have... it is looking for a new home

Jo

[steamer]

Just pop that into the Royal Mail dear and send it to me...I'll take good care of her!

I Have a Wisconson AKS that is in need of a restoration along with a Fitzhenry Guptal Forest fire pump that needs a restoration.....plenty to do.....

Dave
 

[cfellows]

Got a little more done over the past couple of days.  The kids and grand kids are staying with us for a few weeks and I don't have as much time in the shop.

I finished the crankshaft and the crank bearing block.  The bearing block is made from cast iron and the crankshaft is all turned from a single piece of 1 inch diameter 12L14 steel.  Got a nice fit and finish on the crank.  Here's some pics...









Chuck

[zeeprogrammer]

Looks good Chuck.

Kids at home, particularly over holidays, is one of the best reasons to be kept out of the shop.

[b.lindsey]

Looks great to me Chuck...enjoy the grandkids!!

Bill

[Johnmcc69]

Neat project Chuck. Looking forward as always, to the build.
Enjoy that time with the family.

John

[cfellows]

Thanks, everbody, for your interest and comments.  I made the flywheel this afternoon.  Used some of my prized brass, so now I probably won't want to cover it up with green paint... we'll see.  The flywheel at 3" OD is a little oversized for the scale of the engine, so I may trim it down some. 



Kind of knocking out the simple stuff for now.  I'm going to have to tackle the timing gears and cam soon but havent completed the design quite yet.  Maybe the head next...

Chuck

[cfellows]

Finished up the piston and connecting rod today.  The fit and finish of all the parts are very nice. 

 

Unfortunately, I ran into a connundrum all too common when building engines from my own design.  After going to the extra trouble of making a one piece crankshaft, the engine cannot be assembled.    There's no way to get the rod over the crank pin with the crankshaft in place.  I'm going to have to machine off the crankpin and make one that attaches with threads.

Oh, well, that's how it goes.

Chuck 

[cfellows]

Been working some on the Lister D.  I got the head cut to shape and most of the plumbing drilled & sized.



I maded a detachable crankpin so I could get the engine assembled...



This will be the other side of the crankshaft and the primary timing gear, cut from 9 tooth, 24 pitch pinion wire.



Here is the blank for the secondary timing gear.  The blank was turned down from a brass gear like the one in front of it.  I bought a bunch of brass gears on ebay several years ago thinking they would be useful.  Turns out they never have the right number of teeth but they do make good gear blanks.!



Here's the head setting on top of the block.  I will eventually taper the sides of the block in to match the width of the head.  But first I need to make sure all the other machining on the block is done.



Chuck

[cfellows]

Feel like I'm in the home stretch.  I'm down to the nitty gritty parts.  I've spent quite a bit of time deciding on the design for the valve actuating assembly. 

Here is the block with some space carved out for the timing gears, and lifter.



Here's the back cover plate and the timing gears, 40DP, 12 and 24 teeth.



Timing gears in place on the back cover.







Chuck

[cfellows]

Apologies for the attached pictures rather than an included link.  Got forced into the new Photoucket beta and now I don't know how to copy picture links.  Why the H3ll do they have to change things!

Anyway,the first picture set is the valve operating assembly.  This is a four stroke engine so the Cam gear has 24 teeth and the primary gear has 12 teeth.  The cam lobe is on the back of the cam gear.

The second picture shows the engine with the back cover in place.  The push rod is protuding from the top of the block.  It will open and close the air valve which is located in the head.  Actually, the push rod normally holds the valve closed.  At the TDC of the "firing" cycle, the push rod is dropped and incoming air pressure pushes the valve down exposing a port into the top of the cylinder.  This type of operation allows the inlet valve to open very quickly, more closely approximateing the effect of an internal combustion engine.

Chuck

[NickG]

Chuck, this is brilliant, I too have thought of trying to copy one of these and do a ic engine. Sure your compressed air version will be fantastic. Glad I found this just by chance messing around with the tapatalk app!

[zeeprogrammer]

Coming along there Chuck.

As for Photobucket...I ran into the same problem this morning.
Don't know if this helps but...

If you hover over the picture you want, you'll see what looks like a sprocket appear in the upper right corner of the picture.

If you hover over the sprocket, you'll get a little pop-up window.

Select 'Get media links' and you'll see the usual links to IMG, HTML, etc.

Just click in the box of the one you'll want and it will copy.
Then go to MEM and paste (Ctl-V).

More work now. There may be faster ways.

[cfellows]

Thanks for the comments, guys.  And thanks for the hints, Zee.  This evening Photobucket seems to be back to the old normal, so I think I can upload pictures again.

I got the engine running this morning.  Sounds great.  But now to the task of actually making it look more like a Lister D.  Here are some pictures of my progress. 







I tapered the sides of the block and made the base with bolt holes.  I also carved out the top of the head to look more realistic.

I'll post a video after I get it finished.

Chuck

[NickG]

Looking good Chuck, are you planning any dummy carb / exhaust? I can't remember what else they have, the magneto and is there some sort of governor rod?

[cfellows]

Looking good Chuck, are you planning any dummy carb / exhaust? I can't remember what else they have, the magneto and is there some sort of governor rod?

Thanks, Nick.  I have now made a muffler.  There is no carburetor and all the valve gear including the push rod is hidden inside the engine  Unfortunately, the flywheels is about all you can see moving on a Lister D.

Here are a few more pictures of the (nearly) finished engine in the raw before I paint it. 







Here's the paint I'm planning to use.



Chuck

[cfellows]

Here's a few pictures of the painted engine.  First, all the parts laid out.



And assembled...











Unfortunately, no video.  I can't get the engine running again.  The valve leaks too much and the slave valve won't work properly.  I've tried different springs, but what I really need is an o-ring seal on the valve.  But, there just isn't enough meat on the side of the head to bore it out and install an o-ring assembly.  So, I'm going to revert to a poppet valve which means I also need to make a new timing gear and cam.  Gonna take me a few days, but I should have it running by mid week or so!

Chuck

[zeeprogrammer]

I always enjoy seeing a picture of all the disassembled parts. Very neat.
I like that color too.
I don't doubt you'll get it running. Looking forward to it.

[AussieJimG]

Three weeks and it's all painted and almost finished. You haven't wasted any time with this one Chuck.
It looks good and I am sure that in no time at all, we will hear it purring.

Jim

[steamer]

That looks awesome Chuck!   I'm watching!

Dave

[cfellows]

Thanks, Zee, Jim, Dave.

Spent most of the day in the shop today.  I had to change the type of valve in the head.  Didn't have much room, so the valve assembly had to be pretty small.  Didn't take any pictures of the new arrangement.  However, I do have the engine running quite well now.  Here is the video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGKmDTTE1To

I had to fiddle around quite a bit with different springs on the slave valve.  I actually learned something new about it today.  In the past I had just depended on the spring to stop the ball slave valve at a reasonable distance and return it when the inlet valve closed.  However, on this engine, the channel with the slave valve is quite long and so, necessarily was the spring.  Unfortunately, this caused the engine to run eratically.  So, I installed a pin which stops the ball slave valve, threading it so I could adjust the travel.  Works great and greatly enhances the way the engine runs.

Chuck

[steamer]

I like it a lot Chuck!   Great sound!

Well Done my old Friend!

 

Dave

[stevehuckss396]

Great job Chuck!!  You are the king of the air engine. A modern day Elmer in my eyes. I just love the projects that you choose. Keep it coming.

[sbwhart]

Cracking job Chuck  sounds absolutly authentic

 

 

Stew

[swilliams]

Very nice Chuck! I agree that it sounds great

Steve

[vcutajar]

WOW Chuck. A great looking engine and so quick to finish it.

Vince

[KB]

Another beauty. Congratulations Chuck.

How many engines have you designed now? Have you released drawings for the V-8?

[arnoldb]

Very nicely done indeed Chuck 

It starts a lot easier than the original 

Kind regards, Arnold

[cfellows]

Another beauty. Congratulations Chuck.

How many engines have you designed now? Have you released drawings for the V-8?

Thanks everyone for the kind words.  Really very much appreciated.

Kevin, I've built probably close to 30 engines, 20 or so were my design.  I've started another 3 or 4 that never got completed.

I uploaded the plans for the V-8 to HMEM.  I tried uploading them here, but kept getting an error.  Never got a response from the Admins as to why, so kind of forgot about it.  Guess I should try again.

Chuck

[steamer]

Chuck,

Another beauty. Congratulations Chuck.

How many engines have you designed now? Have you released drawings for the V-8?

Thanks everyone for the kind words.  Really very much appreciated.

Kevin, I've built probably close to 30 engines, 20 or so were my design.  I've started another 3 or 4 that never got completed.

I uploaded the plans for the V-8 to HMEM.  I tried uploading them here, but kept getting an error.  Never got a response from the Admins as to why, so kind of forgot about it.  Guess I should try again.

Chuck

Chuck, try posting them again.   If you have any problem, I'll post them for you.

Dave

[b.lindsey]

Chick, you mentioned 120 psi in the video...why so high...is it to do with the type of valve? It really sounds great though!!

Bill

[cfellows]

Chuck,

Another beauty. Congratulations Chuck.

How many engines have you designed now? Have you released drawings for the V-8?

Thanks everyone for the kind words.  Really very much appreciated.

Kevin, I've built probably close to 30 engines, 20 or so were my design.  I've started another 3 or 4 that never got completed.

I uploaded the plans for the V-8 to HMEM.  I tried uploading them here, but kept getting an error.  Never got a response from the Admins as to why, so kind of forgot about it.  Guess I should try again.

Chuck

Chuck, try posting them again.   If you have any problem, I'll post them for you.

Dave

I tried again and I keep getting an error message saying the upload takes too long, might be that the file is too big, which is about 3 mb.  How can I get the plans to you, Dave?

Chuck

[steamer]

PM sent

Dave

[cfellows]

Chick, you mentioned 120 psi in the video...why so high...is it to do with the type of valve? It really sounds great though!!

Bill

Bill, the engine will run on a lot less than 120 PSI.  Rather than adjusting the speed with a pressure regulator, I just use a ball valve and control the air flow rate.  When I mentioned wide open in the video, the ball valve was in fact wide open.  The goal of my designs is to sound as much like a gas engine as possible and higher pressure seems to give me that affect.  I could probably speed up the Lister D significantly by advancing the timing.  Right now the inlet valve begins opening around 20 - 30 degrees after top dead center.

Although the pressure on the Lister D when the ball valve is full open is quite high, the actual rate of air flow is pretty small, relativel speaking, because of the small inlet valve and the low rise.  The valve also seals pretty good letting almost no air through when the valve is closed.  I'm hoping it will get even better when engine breaks in some.

Chuck

[b.lindsey]

Thanks for the explanation Chuck. You certainly achieved the IC engine sound on the Lister!! 

Bill

[wlb]

Chuck
Have just watched the video and running fast in sounds like the real thing. For a number of years I exhibited a Lister "D" and if that was on a rally field you would know it was a Lister D. I exhibit models now so I could do with one like yours. Not a lot to see like the real ones but the sound makes up for that.
Thanks for letting us all see the build and the running as well.

[NickG]

Well done again chuck, it is fantastic and lovely to see a replica of an actual engine. I really need to make one of these engines with your valve mechanism, it would attract so much attention at shows. What sort of pressure can they go down to and still sound more like an ic engine than a steam engine? Am thinking of the club display stand and whether it will run on there, I don't think it has great deal of pressure. Nevertheless, still fancy giving one a go either way!

[cfellows]

Thanks, all, for the comments.  I'll see how low I can set the pressure and still get a good sound.  Don't the shows typically provide about 30 PSI for the display models?

Chuck

[NickG]

We have to take our own compressor, am not sure what it runs at as a lot of engines are sapping air so guess it's whatever it can keep up with flow rate wise. 30 psi doesn't sound unreasonable though. I could always knock other engines off to give short demos while I'm manning the stand rather than leaving one running.