Seeing double?

[Jo]

Last week I was tempted by a young man to go and see his castings , well I liked them so much that I felt the urge to have to take them home

The set of castings in question is for a model Westbury Double Tangye Mill engine. It is a fairly simple engine but it has one feature that is pussling me: it has two governors each controlling a piston valve throttle:



I am struggling to find the point of this, it would seem more logical to fit only one governor and to control a single throttle valve as per this one I found:



I know that these engines were originally made as colonial engines and the idea was that as they were relatively small you could run them as either a double or as a single if you dropped off one crank and eccentric. But would that not have worked if there was a single governor and throttle? 

Jo

[Jasonb]

No I can't see much point in having two governors, one would work and if you wanted to run the engine as a single then provided you could shut the steam off to the non running cylinder it would work.

Time to track down some old Tangye catalogues me thinks. Did John Bertinat do a different version of this to Westbury? or was it mainly the marine engines he did.

J

[Jasonb]

Jo ME 4278 has a few of the Double Tangye variants, interestingly Dave Piddington says Westbury based his on one that is shown with a single governor, also the GA on my Hobby Store seems to show a single governor?? A read through of Westbury's build series may throw some more light on the subject.

http://www.myhobbystore.co.uk/product/17400/double-tangye-mill-engine-m14

DP's article also says that Bertinat designed a compound, now that would make an interesting project if they are raw castings you have been looking at and not that completed one of Alan's

Also ME Vol 68 had a design for another Double, I expect you have copies.

J

[Jo]

Time to track down some old Tangye catalogues me thinks. Did John Bertinat do a different version of this to Westbury? or was it mainly the marine engines he did.

I am on the look out for some all offers gladly received.  John Bertinat did a compound version of the engine about 10 years ago by adding a Stuart cylinder in place of the right hand engine (looking from the flywheel end).  But so far I have only managed to find reference to a single original double engine, no compounds....still looking.

None of the full sized engines I have found thus far have their governors fitted where the model does they all fit above the piston valve regulator on the steam chest. This would be good as I don't have the castings for the Governor mountings.

What I like about Tangyes is they should have a Pickering governor  not a watts as per the original model design. I haven't yet made any of those, I know I want to .

Jo

[Jo]

ME 4278 has a few of the Double Tangye variants, interestingly Dave Piddington says Westbury based his on one that is shown with a single governor, also the GA on my Hobby Store seems to show a single governor?? A read through of Westbury's build series may throw some more light on the subject.

DP's article also says that Bertinat designed a compound, now that would make an interesting project if they are raw castings you have been looking at and not that completed one of Alan's

Also ME Vol 68 had a design for another Double, I expect you have copies.

J

Thanks, I will have to dig out that copy of ME when I get home...

Now it is the original Westbury article that I suspect is the source of the twin governors problem rather than original engines, but I hope someone will be able to enlighten me. The GA as you say shows a single governor but as you get to the pages about building the governor they show all the parts as needing twice as many as you really need (ignoring the fact that the governors don't look very original )

And no I do not have that  horrible model from Alan. Whilst my castings are not virgins they have only slightly been touched by human hand so they are not so set in their ways that they cannot be shaped into something more desirable

I don't go back as far as ME volume 68... only to the year before my birth . You will have to enlighten me.

Jo

[Jasonb]

Sorry I don't have Vol 68, I'm sure you can look at 2278 on line while you pretend to be working its in the digital archive

You could always stick a "Soho" governor on it, just copy the one from the E&A. and while you are at it why not knock up a colonial boiler to mount it on

[Jo]

I'm sure you can look at 2278 on line while you pretend to be working its in the digital archive

The digital archive only goes back to 4153. Am I lookiing in the wrong place?

And looking at the magazine numbers my collection at home is unlikely to go back to 2278

Jo

[Jasonb]

oops typo, should be 4278 Had it right in my first post.

[steamer]

Hey Jo,

I agree with you regarding the governers.   Marine reciprocating steam generally didn't have governers on main plants....I'm sure someone will show me the exception.....and I wouldn't mind seeing it!....but no they were not fitted with governers.

There was no real need.   Additionally, there are plenty of stories in the literature about Engineers standing throttle watch during large storms to slam the throttle shut when the stern and the propellor would periodically come out of the water.   I suspect that the governers of the day just were'nt fast enough to do the duty anyway.

A far as that double governer engine is concerned...why put two governers on a twin?   Well...if the cranks were dogged together and each engine had it's own output pulley...then you could undog and run one engine during times of low or light loading and keep the other shut down completely which would be the only way that would make any sense for as it would halve your steam consumption.    Otherwise one is just fine.

Dave

[Maryak]

Some had Aspinall Governors fitted but it was more an overspeed trip than a governor. I served in an oil tanker with one fitted and it was a right royal pain in the arse until we disconnected it. In heavy weather the prop would partially, sometimes almost fully, leave the water, especially when in ballast. Needless to say this was fairly exciting. The trouble was when the Aspinall tripped the ahead throttle the bloody thing had to be wound fully shut to reset the trip and then opened up again. The throttle handwheel was some 4ft diameter and drove a heap of rod gearing and bevel boxes up to the actual valve and was heavy going especially when trying to do it quickly. When the stern went back under the water the prop kinda stopped hence the haste. We found we could shut it enough by hand to prevent a dangerous overspeed before the ocean got another grip on the prop.

Just another little insight into the joys of engine room watchkeeping.

Best Regards
Bob

[Jo]

I'm sure you can look at 2278 on line while you pretend to be working its in the digital archive

Jason, thanks again, for pointing me at that . But I feel the need to disagree with David P, that or E Westbury took extreem license when he generated his design. The coupled horizontal engine in the drawing is very different than the model or the Colonial engines. If you look at these:







You can see a lot of the features that are on the model. Where as the original engine that David pointed at has a distinct split flywheel indicating it is rather larger than the little colonials.  And all of them have that lovely little pickering I have been promising myself .

Jo

[steamer]

Some had Aspinall Governors fitted but it was more an overspeed trip than a governor. I served in an oil tanker with one fitted and it was a right royal pain in the arse until we disconnected it. In heavy weather the prop would partially, sometimes almost fully, leave the water, especially when in ballast. Needless to say this was fairly exciting. The trouble was when the Aspinall tripped the ahead throttle the bloody thing had to be wound fully shut to reset the trip and then opened up again. The throttle handwheel was some 4ft diameter and drove a heap of rod gearing and bevel boxes up to the actual valve and was heavy going especially when trying to do it quickly. When the stern went back under the water the prop kinda stopped hence the haste. We found we could shut it enough by hand to prevent a dangerous overspeed before the ocean got another grip on the prop.

Just another little insight into the joys of engine room watchkeeping.

Best Regards
Bob

And if the governer happens to shut it down on TDC  when the prop went back in....your glued, screwed and tattoo'd!....unless the Engineer of the watch is on duty at the throttle!......

Dave

[Jasonb]

Jo, I only had a quick glipse of the ME article this morning and you are right the one pictured is a much more substantial engine. Looking at the site where I think you got those images from they do almost all seem to have the pickering governors.

Are you on Traction Talk? if so have a look at S2steamy's 6" GMT build he has just completed a very nice pickering.

[Maryak]

And if the governer happens to shut it down on TDC  when the prop went back in....your glued, screwed and tattoo'd!....unless the Engineer of the watch is on duty at the throttle!......

Dave

Actually no, remember the impulse valves and where else would he be at such a time, ( apart from looking for a bucket). 

Best Regards
Bob

[Jo]

..... they do almost all seem to have the pickering governors.

Are you on Traction Talk?

Aren't those Tangye's lovely on that site and still being used I will have to go look at S2steamy's work.

I seem to have an Allchin pickering base casting that you may recall I failed to sell last weekend  and its diameter is consistent with the piston valve throttle for this engine. I have a few more changes to the original Westbury design but I believe that a plan seems to be coming together .

Jo

[steamer]

And if the governer happens to shut it down on TDC  when the prop went back in....your glued, screwed and tattoo'd!....unless the Engineer of the watch is on duty at the throttle!......

Dave

Actually no, remember the impulse valves and where else would he be at such a time, ( apart from looking for a bucket). 

Best Regards
Bob

Yes!  A quick clout of the starting valve would set her off in a hurry...to say nothing of cycling the links from ahead to astern quickly. which worked a treat on Sabino...but I would suspect not on a Liberty ship size engine.

Dave

[Pete49]

Last week I was tempted by a young man to go and see his castings , well I liked them so much that I felt the urge to have to take them home
The set of castings in question is for a model Westbury Double Tangye Mill engine. It is a fairly simple engine but it has one feature that is pussling me: it has two governors each controlling a piston valve throttle:
I know that these engines were originally made as colonial engines and the idea was that as they were relatively small you could run them as either a double or as a single if you dropped off one crank and eccentric. But would that not have worked if there was a single governor and throttle? 

Jo

Now Jo how can a smart person like you not be clever???  The answer is simple...ie hey if we put 2 govenors on this engine we can charge double the price.... simple really 
Pete

[Jo]

....ie hey if we put 2 govenors on this engine we can charge double the price.... simple really 

Did I mention who does these castings today: Reeves,  who we know are always so cheap

One thing that really annoys me when you go to try to buy a part built model is that expression "It was started by a toolmaker". Well either I have unreasonable expectations of the abilities of toolmakers over novice model engineers or toolmakers these days don't have the hand skills they one day had.  May be they are talking  ......I am sure I am not blond....

Who ever started the cylinders on these didn't have a clue as to how to drill the steam ways,  luckily they are recoverable and the fault will not be visible on the finished engine .

Jo

[fcheslop]

Hi Jo. Theres good tool makers and some that are only tool makers on their mothers side of the family

[Bezalel]

One thing that really annoys me when you go to try to buy a part built model is that expression "It was started by a toolmaker". Well either I have unreasonable expectations of the abilities of toolmakers over novice model engineers or toolmakers these days don't have the hand skills they one day had.  May be they are talking  ......I am sure I am not blond....

Jo

who took over after the tool maker started?    

[Jo]

I'll let you decide, this is what I picked up:



The base has only been fettled.





The guides are different heights and have been bored so that there is no guide left at the top .



The valve chests have not been drilled square .



The steam ports seem to have missed the bore.



And I have two started crankshafts, neither match the drawings. I think you can see they are different lengths .

It is still recoverable. You may have noticed a non standard casting having slipped in there, a pickering mount Time to put it safely back under my bed

Jo

[ths]

Hmm, the flywheel seems untouched.

Hugh.

[Jo]

Yes a good many castings are untouched. Now the question was what to do with them

      Jo

[ths]

Hi Jo,

If you wanted to go ahead and make the engine as drawn, the messed up parts are here:

http://shop.ajreeves.com/double-tangye-299-c.asp

The expensive ones seem to be intact in your set, so replacement of the steam chests and possibly cylinder covers shouldn't be too onerous.

The other option is to make it up as a single. From memory, ETW 'updated' this design from one that had been available for some time previously, but was no longer available at the time the construction series was published. I'm pretty sure he refers to single versions being made, but I don't have the articles at hand to check. I don't think you'd have any trouble making up a suitable baseplate, in fact two would give you separate but mirror image engines.

Hugh.

[zeeprogrammer]

Yes a good many castings are untouched. Now the question was what to do with them

Looking forward to your answers. 

[Jasonb]

Jo does have the baseplate so I'm sure she will build it as a double, I suspect that it was only fettled as was the way at the time the article was published when filing was the only alternative as most did not have mills and the casting too big to go on the vertical slide.

The Earlier design may well be the one I mentioned at the start of this thread that was in Vol 68.

Looking at the drawings is does not appear that the passages should meet the bore, probably just wants a recess milling out so the steam can get to the cylinder and maybe a notch out of teh cylinder cover spigots to match a bit like this

Jo with all those castings under your bed do you have it raised up on blocks and have to mind your head on the ceiling when you sit up in bed? Maybe you misheard the description of the previous builder and the seller said "it was made by a tool"

J

[Jo]

Jo with all those castings under your bed do you have it raised up on blocks and have to mind your head on the ceiling when you sit up in bed? Maybe you misheard the description of the previous builder and the seller said "it was made by a tool"

No, no, no my castings are normally stored in the library and with a bit of squeesing I have manged to fit these in there, so I can still safely invite people round to see my castings

However some naughty fella has reminded me of the desires of my youth and now it looks like I need more castings.

Jo

[Jasonb]

And just to stoke your fire a bit more 



J

[Jo]

Jo

[steamer]

Jo...I'm sure there's a 12 step program for this affliction.........

The program meets just down the hall from the other one for those who MUST buy more machine tools.....and store them in the library..... ..........stay tuned......

Dave

[Jo]

.....and store them in the library.....

  My Cowell's is in the library .

Jo

[steamer]

I think the meetings run hourly....see you there!


Dave

[Jo]

Shall we Start at the beginning of the alphabet, so that would mean you need to bring along your Aciera : I could do with a F1 fix now that the season's finished.

Jo

[Bezalel]

My Cowell's is in the library .

Jo

Mr Cowell;
in the Library;
with an Iron casting
 
   Mmmm... Sounds like the makings of a fun board Game 
 
Bez

[Jo]

There is no hope for me, the more I think about it ... I nearly got the DVD out of me working one, I found the boxes of photo's, the 200 slides have been scanned on to the computer .

I have booked to go and visit Alan B, I'll see if he can talk me out of it.

Jo

[Jasonb]

Watch out for that man, he wil try and talk you out of a PE and make you build his Wallis, he's been trying to get me to do one for ages.

Why not butcher his 2" compound A7 into a farmers engine saves having to sort a cylinder for the 3" then everyone is happy

And don't let him sell you this either if its still available

[Jo]

Watch out for that man, he Will try and talk you out of a PE and make you build his Wallis, he's been trying to get me to do one for ages.

Why not butcher his 2" compound A7 into a farmers engine saves having to sort a cylinder for the 3" then everyone is happy

I need talking out of it, I know I shouldn't plan to make another large engine (or two ), I have lots of lovely engines to make, I want to start designing my own engines .. I have had 12 years of successfully ignoring those desires.  


I am increasingly loosing the argument with myself, if Alan can argue away from them to something else then it could delay the inevitable. Maybe if I just think about the parts list for now  .

Jo

[steamer]

Shall we Start at the beginning of the alphabet, so that would mean you need to bring along your Aciera : I could do with a F1 fix now that the season's finished.

Jo

Admitting you have a problem is the first step.....I haven't gotten to the step where I actually give my habit away to a "higher power"....WHOM ever that might be.......but be patient ...the Myan calender runs out shortly...and we might get lucky with the near earth astroid.......

[steamer]

Be careful of the "big jobs" Jo.....they are all encompassing....and they get more expensive to the cube of the scale......ask me how I know this....

Dave

[Jo]

Be careful of the "big jobs" Jo.....they are all encompassing....and they get more expensive to the cube of the scale......ask me how I know this....

Dave

But if things go to plan and I manage to get them to let me take very early retirement in a few years time I will be rattling off engines like there is no tomorrow.     Sorry I have had that arguement with myself and it doesn't work, it just justified the need for buying more castings and other desirable shiney things whilst I am still at work 

And then there is that other little problem, when I was married I was not allowed to buy castings or have more than one item on the go at a time I had to finish each before I was allowed another. Whilst I am still young free and single I can endulge in my passions and start continue stashing them away in a safe place just in case I find myself doing something foolish again in the future

Jo

[steamer]

Not so much the committment side Jo...just the physical size.   They're heavy and awkward and hard to move or bring places....and cost serious cash.

I have no doubt regarding the degree or alacrity which you will proceed once you set your mind to it.....what ever "it" is and whenever "that" happens!.

Dave

PS
"And then there is that other little problem, when I was married I was not allowed to buy castings or have more than one item on the go at a time  I had to finish each before I was allowed another. Whilst I am still young free and single I can endulge in my passions and start continue stashing them away in a safe place just in case I find myself doing something foolish again in the future .."

Neanderthal!......ya done good Jo!   Never EVER give away who you are....to anyone.

Dave

[Jo]

  Sadly Dave I am slowly resigning myself to the fact that you are right. It is not the money, that does not matter (I have a 5? Royal Scot that would easily fund it) but the physical size is the problem. It is rather embarrassing when I have to ask my 70 year old father to come and visit so that he can help me move my models? I tried lifting the Scot?s boiler last night, my inability to move the thing on my own is one of the reasons she never was finished I really need to be sensible.

Alan B may be able to help with some of these concerns but for a model engineering business, who is less than a mile or so from where I work he never seems to be open, answer the phone or respond to Emails.
At least I now have all my remaining photo?s digitised.

Jo

Edit: Decision made the Clayton is going to be sold to fund it .

[Jasonb]

Go and knock on his door, he does not live far away, Oh then again maybe not you could be tempted by the sight of his 4" Burrell and the 3" Fowler Showmans he has there

You will just have to start working in the smaller scales like Cherry Hill

J

[Jo]

Go and knock on his door, he does not live far away, Oh then again maybe not you could be tempted by the sight of his 4" Burrell and the 3" Fowler Showmans he has there

I don't know where he actually lives only the "shop". No sorry a Burrell or a flashy showmans does nothing for me, they may as well be a steam rollers as far as I am concerned.

The problem with smaller scales is that Maxitrak have made one in 1" so it rather devalues any model in that size .

Jo

[Jasonb]

Best not tell you to look at the for sale ads on TT, 2" AA7 and a Z2?

The very small scales are really showcase models you need at least 2" for it to work and larger really if you want to shift some dirt. Even in 2" you need to think about lifting gear especially if like my Superba its got a steel boiler

[Jo]

Best not tell you to look at the for sale ads on TT, 2" AA7 and a Z2?

I looked , thankfully couldn't find them.

The very small scales are really showcase models you need at least 2" for it to work and larger really if you want to shift some dirt. Even in 2" you need to think about lifting gear especially if like my Superba its got a steel boiler

I know, the Maixtrak engine requires the use of nut crackers to make the coal small enough to fit into the firebox and mice to ride the plough

I still reckon you can in the main get away without lifting gear in 2" , you just need a second set of strong willing hands, so that option is still on the table   .

Jo

[Jasonb]

You had the use of my willing hands last week, don't make a habit of it otherwise some members might start to talk

But having suitable lifting gear would make it so easy to get things from the workshop to the dining room, just like this guy has done.




While looking for Soho Governors last night I did come accross this image and for some reason it made me think of your Libruary/dining/living room floor




J

[Jo]

  In my dreams,

Jo

[IanR]

ME 4278 has a few of the Double Tangye variants, interestingly Dave Piddington says Westbury based his on one that is shown with a single governor, also the GA on my Hobby Store seems to show a single governor?? A read through of Westbury's build series may throw some more light on the subject.

Thanks, I will have to dig out that copy of ME when I get home...

Now it is the original Westbury article that I suspect is the source of the twin governors problem rather than original engines, but I hope someone will be able to enlighten me. The GA as you say shows a single governor but as you get to the pages about building the governor they show all the parts as needing twice as many as you really need (ignoring the fact that the governors don't look very original )

In the series on building this engine, ETW said that he found an 1892 Tangye catalogue picture of an engine with 2 governors, though not mounted in exactly the same way as on the model. ME volume 110, 4th March 1954 p232.